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Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

  • Total voters
    75
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Xix2565 said:
Not all pitches in the subcontinent, or all pitches in fast bowling friendly countries are the same. So in that case the evaluation by countries generally shouldn't matter as much because the conditions present when the player played should be taken into account. Pitches in the past in certain countries weren't as they are now and that should be remembered when it comes to saying X player did well in Y country.
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All of this is true, period.

It doesn't stop is though for applying this logic to everyone one else. A few here have used this to target Ambrose re India, despite the fact that he never had a chance to play there, through injury, and that he's more than proven himself in flatter conditions. Even then some said the pitches in pak wasn't flat enough when he toured.

The great Everton Weekes, many though he was not only better than the other Was, but Headley (including Bradman if I recall correctly), and was primed to perform well in Australia before a devastating injury that never quite healed. So while averaging 58 overall he averaged 24 in Australia and 33 in England. But of course he had good performances in both places, 2 50's down under and, 1 100 and 4 50's in England, but overall he failed. And he's basically called a FTB or HTB. He was a magnificent batsman but we can't overlook those "holes" as you put it.

You're saying we can't treat each individual country based on historical context, and that's true, but we aren't talking about nit picking, or looking for a gotcha moment. But if there are 3 good opposing teams and you've failed in each one, that's a concern. It's not a matter of conditions change and it's X or Y country, it's literally all of them, it's not an anomaly.

And for the record I'm not even discussing with regards to titles here, Laker has an amazing record, no one outs him the the same zone as the top 3, far less tier, and I'm saying that while no doubt a fabulous bowler and among the greats, if you're most successful I conditions when the opposing team has to also play 3 spinners, you're very conditions dependant.

It's why we look at fast bowlers record on same SC and generally away from home and against the best opposition. In everyone's record we look to see how they performed in Australia, England, SA, India and back in the day when it mattered, the Caribbean. That's how legacies are forged and it not enough to exist in an echo chamber and state that only home matters. That's never been the case for any country or player. Imran and Sunny made their marks based on how they did in the WI, Marshall in India and Pakistan, Steyn in India, Smith in India etc etc.

It's disingenuous to all of a sudden then say that, conditions change and it doesn't matter anymore. But yes he's one of if not the most important cog for one of the most dominant home outfits in the history of the game and he does deserve and receive credit for that.
 
kyear2

kyear2

International Coach
Coronis said:
Sounds like that Rabada dude too


Or that Anderson guy :ph34r:
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Never know when you're being sarcastic, but yeah.

Surprising his name hasn't come up until now. Relatively decent comp and in the brink of 300 wickets at a decent clip. How is he viewed?
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
kyear2 said:
Never know when you're being sarcastic, but yeah.

Surprising his name hasn't come up until now. Relatively decent comp and in the brink of 300 wickets at a decent clip. How is he viewed?
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Clue: I was serious about one of them and sarcastic about the other.
 
honestbharani

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Coronis said:
Ignore button is for losers.




Get over it lol. If you don’t want to engage, don’t. He’s not in your face irl forcing you to respond, its an internet forum. You can simply not respond to his posts, even when he specifically quotes you. It makes you look more childish tbh, especially when most of your recent posts focus on attacking a single poster.

Also in all the different forums I’ve visited I’ve noticed calling out the mod team is definitely a surefire way to actually get things moving in your favour :thumbsup:
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You speak as if you feel the same every day. I have not engaged for a long time and it was only in the last week that I reached my saturation point.

I see how you have absolutely no answers to any of the actual stuff i posted except "get over it". Think you should follow your own advice first?
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
honestbharani said:
You speak as if you feel the same every day. I have not engaged for a long time and it was only in the last week that I reached my saturation point.

I see how you have absolutely no answers to any of the actual stuff i posted except "get over it". Think you should follow your own advice first?
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Well first off I don’t agree with the stuff you posted. I kinda like subs posting, definitely don’t agree with him a majority of the time but they’re not boring and create discussion.

And yes I’m the one who need to “get over it”. For making one post trying to help you out. Not the guy who’s been throwing a tantrum for the last few pages :)
 
honestbharani

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Coronis said:
Well first off I don’t agree with the stuff you posted. I kinda like subs posting, definitely don’t agree with him a majority of the time but they’re not boring and create discussion.

And yes I’m the one who need to “get over it”. Not the guy who’s been throwing a tantrum for the last few pages :)
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Lol.. pointing out obvious bias is what you call a tantrum? Have a read first and see who started the whole "your side" nonsense? 🙂

And again, it's very obvious why the rules around baiting, trolling and forum atmosphere apply here for anyone who has an iota of sense.
 
S

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
honestbharani said:
Lol.. pointing out obvious bias is what you call a tantrum? Have a read first and see who started the whole "your side" nonsense? 🙂

And again, it's very obvious why the rules around baiting, trolling and forum atmosphere apply here for anyone who has an iota of sense.
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I think @Coronis and @OverratedSanity are right. You need to enjoy the spirit of debate and taking the piss more, and be less of a sourpuss.
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
kyear2 said:
All of this is true, period.

It doesn't stop is though for applying this logic to everyone one else. A few here have used this to target Ambrose re India, despite the fact that he never had a chance to play there, through injury, and that he's more than proven himself in flatter conditions. Even then some said the pitches in pak wasn't flat enough when he toured.

The great Everton Weekes, many though he was not only better than the other Was, but Headley (including Bradman if I recall correctly), and was primed to perform well in Australia before a devastating injury that never quite healed. So while averaging 58 overall he averaged 24 in Australia and 33 in England. But of course he had good performances in both places, 2 50's down under and, 1 100 and 4 50's in England, but overall he failed. And he's basically called a FTB or HTB. He was a magnificent batsman but we can't overlook those "holes" as you put it.

You're saying we can't treat each individual country based on historical context, and that's true, but we aren't talking about nit picking, or looking for a gotcha moment. But if there are 3 good opposing teams and you've failed in each one, that's a concern. It's not a matter of conditions change and it's X or Y country, it's literally all of them, it's not an anomaly.

And for the record I'm not even discussing with regards to titles here, Laker has an amazing record, no one outs him the the same zone as the top 3, far less tier, and I'm saying that while no doubt a fabulous bowler and among the greats, if you're most successful I conditions when the opposing team has to also play 3 spinners, you're very conditions dependant.

It's why we look at fast bowlers record on same SC and generally away from home and against the best opposition. In everyone's record we look to see how they performed in Australia, England, SA, India and back in the day when it mattered, the Caribbean. That's how legacies are forged and it not enough to exist in an echo chamber and state that only home matters. That's never been the case for any country or player. Imran and Sunny made their marks based on how they did in the WI, Marshall in India and Pakistan, Steyn in India, Smith in India etc etc.

It's disingenuous to all of a sudden then say that, conditions change and it doesn't matter anymore. But yes he's one of if not the most important cog for one of the most dominant home outfits in the history of the game and he does deserve and receive credit for that.
Click to expand...
I don't get this notion of "Oh but some of these guys I don't rate that high have flaws, so X who has flaws shouldn't be rated highly". It's very weird to base judgement like that. Becomes extremely inconsistent because like the point with the pitches and conditions, flaws get ignored quite often when it comes to faves then.

I mean how is it not a gotcha moment? Explain please, how this sort of nitpicking is standardized procedure and not prone to extreme bias?

Yet this doesn't apply to a lot of fast bowlers. Apparently playing 3+ fast bowlers is conditions agnostic, even taking basic advantages into account.

Yeah this seems far too many words to say nothing. We look at records but not in detail, we say Steyn and co did well but don't bother to check if they occasionally got to statpad on favourable wickets because this idea never seems to show up for certain types of players vs others. We just ignore that home conditions can be difficult for some players more often than we believe because one random part timer takes a big haul and it's all doctored. We basically treat older spinners far better even though you can't say some of the modern spinners wouldn't have found the conditions they played in better than what they get now, and so on.

Like yeah away records are impressive, but we just ignore how much conditions matter for everyone, not just spinners or batters. Like sorry, but the issue isn't really with me here, it's with the shapeshifting standards people use to penalise home records and overhype away records. Apparently trying to point this out seems to get jimmies rustling for some reason.
 
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