Ravichandran Ashwin vs Nathan Lyon

[JavaHurricane]

Or when Steyn, Philander, Rabada and Morkel let Mendis score his 153*....

Philander was injured early in that innings and bowled little to Perera (not Mendis), and Morkel had retired during the Sandpaper series. Steyn was at the literal end of his career too.

 

[Xix2565]

So what is the point in considering one performance over the other to rank players then? Or is this just a derail for no reason?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Philander was injured early in that innings and bowled little to Perera (not Mendis), and Morkel had retired during the Sandpaper series. Steyn was at the literal end of his career too.

Rabada was at around his peak, and Steyn is always dangerous..... That was an ATG innings from Perera because he batted well; this one was from Pope because he did so too. Warne and McGrath let an injured Laxman and dehydrated Dravid to comeback from a point of no return.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ignore the nine wickets he got through downhill skiing at a disinterested England team in Dharamsala, and the numbers worsen to 17 wickets at 30.41 (economy improves slightly to 3.95).

Ye kya bakchodi hai bc

 

[honestbharani]

Ye kya bakchodi hai bc

I mean the only reason Lyon got a 7fer in that Adelaide test in 2014 was because we went for the target. That was an easy draw with Lyon having figures like 1/150. I wonder why these facts don't get pointed out.

And if we are to disregard a haul by a spinner in Dharamshala of all pitches, then none of Lyon's record in Australia should ever count, coming as it does by teams who are mentally beaten even before a ball is bowled most of the time.

 

[Xix2565]

Some people think I'm this bad for some reason smh. I at least make sense.

 

[JavaHurricane]

Yes. The 2nd Test. Ollie Pope genuinely played an ATG innings against not just Ashwin, but Bumrah, Jadeja, and inform Axar and Siraj as well; not to mention I believe Axar dropped the catch off of Ashwin's ball. Anyways; to put it mildly, Lyon's record in SC is slightly better than Ashwin in SENA, can be argued to be equal; Ashwin's record in SC is a no contest with Lyon in SENA

Rajkot was the third Test, and Axar and Siraj were decidedly not in form.

Re: Lyon's Asia stats, his numbers (140 wickets at 30.81) are no good, of course - especially in Pakistan and the UAE (even accounting for those tracks being roads). But Ashwin's numbers in SENA (71 wickets at 39.36) are downright horrible. Kumble, bowling in the era of flat roads, was in fact somewhat better (141 wickets at 37.04) in SENA. There's a reason why Ashwin gets dropped in SA and England, and him being completely useless in South Africa on the last two tours there is instructive too.

 

[Xix2565]

Rajkot was the third Test, and Axar and Siraj were decidedly not in form.

Re: Lyon's Asia stats, his numbers (140 wickets at 30.81) are no good, of course - especially in Pakistan and the UAE (even accounting for those tracks being roads). But Ashwin's numbers in SENA (71 wickets at 39.36) are downright horrible. Kumble, bowling in the era of flat roads, was in fact somewhat better (141 wickets at 37.04) in SENA. There's a reason why Ashwin gets dropped in SA and England, and him being completely useless in South Africa on the last two tours there is instructive too.

Again, no context being used in analysis. At least try to make a case please.

Lyon just lost a Test to WI at the Gabba. Have some shame.

 

[JavaHurricane]

Rabada was at around his peak, and Steyn is always dangerous..... That was an ATG innings from Perera because he batted well; this one was from Pope because he did so too. Warne and McGrath let an injured Laxman and dehydrated Dravid to comeback from a point of no return.

Ishant Sharma under Dhoni was barely a worse Test bowler than Dale Steyn in the last two years of his Test career. This isn't a joke - Steyn averaged 35.18 for 22 wickets in the last two years of his career, while Ishant went at 36.65 under Dhoni. (Also, when was Laxman injured at Kolkata?)

 

[capt_Luffy]

Rajkot was the third Test, and Axar and Siraj were decidedly not in form.

Re: Lyon's Asia stats, his numbers (140 wickets at 30.81) are no good, of course - especially in Pakistan and the UAE (even accounting for those tracks being roads). But Ashwin's numbers in SENA (71 wickets at 39.36) are downright horrible. Kumble, bowling in the era of flat roads, was in fact somewhat better (141 wickets at 37.04) in SENA. There's a reason why Ashwin gets dropped in SA and England, and him being completely useless in South Africa on the last two tours there is instructive too.

Ashwin's SENA record is horrible only and only if you consider nothing but raw averages as important. He averages 42 in Australia; but has been by far the best visiting spinner to play there in the last decade and without him we wouldn't had won the last BGT ( performed great in the previous Adelaide game also). His record in England is perfectly fine at averaging 28; and in South Africa, he got served some of the most non spin friendly wickets out there; but still I would agree that he failed there. In the matches he played alongside Lyon in Australia, Lyon averages slightly more taking 7 less wickets; while in SA, Keshav Maharaj pulls figures of 60. And have you even watched the last match of his in SA?? Because it looked to me that he bowled pretty good, was our best after Bumrah; and if not Rohit's idiocracy of using him, we might actually had SA for a lower total. His match figures doesn't reflects how he bowled.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ishant Sharma under Dhoni was barely a worse Test bowler than Dale Steyn in the last two years of his Test career. This isn't a joke - Steyn averaged 35.18 for 22 wickets in the last two years of his career, while Ishant went at 36.65 under Dhoni. (Also, when was Laxman injured at Kolkata?)

Read about Laxman's spine during that Test series.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Also, when was Laxman injured at Kolkata?

He was playing through a pretty bad back injury.

 

[JavaHurricane]

Again, no context being used in analysis. At least try to make a case please.

Lyon just lost a Test to WI at the Gabba. Have some shame.

Lyon took 5/123 in that game. Not his fault Australia lost - that was down to Cummins having a bad game (1/145) and Australia's batting getting ripped up by Shamar.

 

[Xix2565]

Lyon took 5/123 in that game. Not his fault Australia lost - that was down to Cummins having a bad game (1/145) and Australia's batting getting ripped up by Shamar.

Should've taken 8/123 if the others were so useless then. Should've batted better as well. No excuse for losing to the WI at home though.

 

[ma1978]

Using that 12 for by Kumble was a joke. Didn’t he give up like 300 runs

Same for that last Lyon five for

Averages exist for a reason

 

[ma1978]

Ashwin

Highest ICC Rating - 904
Current ICC Rating - 870
Highest Ranking - 1

Lyon

Highest ICC Rating - 801
Current ICC Rating - 801
Highest Ranking - 5

These are for two exact contemporaries. The only difference is Lyon played 32 tests for the same number of wickets essentially.

It’s not a discussion. It’s not close. And that’s not because Lyon is a bad cricketer.

People get caught up in minutiae and engage in masturbatory discussions around self created criteria when the answer is bloody obvious.

 

[Spark]

Oh spare me this rubbish . Those three games literally only get brought up when people refuse to admit he's been any good in Australia.

And those "threecount em three" good games are more than basically any overseas spinner has managed in Australia in over a decade. Nonsensical to underplay it. Now that you've joined forces with the deniers, I'll be even more obnoxious in my praise of his performance on that tour.

Ashwin overall doesn't even have good stats in Australia. Yet Lyon in those same games he's played in Australia vs us averages something like 45. Same pitches, same games, and Ashwin has outperformed him several times.

This is coming from someone who rates Lyon on the same tier as ashwin BTW.

Lyon was indeed quite crap in those games though. I've already said his performances in those 2018 and 2021 series are probably the big black mark on his record in Australia! Ashwin really was excellent in the last two tours but we are only talking about three games, out of eleven.

 

[Spark]

I mean the only reason Lyon got a 7fer in that Adelaide test in 2014 was because we went for the target. That was an easy draw with Lyon having figures like 1/150. I wonder why these facts don't get pointed out.

And if we are to disregard a haul by a spinner in Dharamshala of all pitches, then none of Lyon's record in Australia should ever count, coming as it does by teams who are mentally beaten even before a ball is bowled most of the time.

I don't think that's quite true re: Adelaide. I recently rewatched a lot of that final day and Lyon was getting crazy amounts of turn and bounce outside the right hander's off stump from the rough; Vijay and Kohli had to play seriously well to nullify it and they definitely had their moments at times. Vijay simply missed a straight one, but then Rahane and Rohit both got done by the bounce rather than any aggressive intent. Saha played a terrible shot, but the threat of the new ball wrecking the lower order (which it ended up doing) forced Kohli to go into slog mode and that's when he holed out. After that it was all over, really.

It might well have been a draw, but it's no guarantee. Losing all those wickets just before the new ball was really bad timing for India, it left Kohli with no support at the other end.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't think that's quite true re: Adelaide. I recently rewatched a lot of that final day and Lyon was getting crazy amounts of turn and bounce outside the right hander's off stump from the rough; Vijay and Kohli had to play seriously well to nullify it and they definitely had their moments at times. Vijay simply missed a straight one, but then Rahane and Rohit both got done by the bounce rather than any aggressive intent. Saha played a terrible shot, but the new ball wrecking the lower order forced Kohli to go into slog mode and that's when he holed out. After that it was all over, really.

It might well have been a draw, but it's no guarantee. Losing all those wickets just before the new ball was really bad timing for India, it left Kohli with no support at the other end.

Dropping Ashwin for Karn was one of the biggest travesties of that era of braindead Shastri/Kohli nonsense. It was the one legit turning pitch Australia have given India in a long time and we wasted it on a bloke who couldn't it even get it to land on said turning pitch.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Rahane was sawn off by a pretty poor decision though iirc.