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Ravichandran Ashwin vs Nathan Lyon

Who is the better test bowler?

  • Total voters
    33
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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subshakerz said:
While I admit Ashwin had a good series, those tests are definitely overplayed as if it was some ATG performance. I recall folks saying it was better than Kumble's 12-fer in 2004 for example.

Lyon himself in those 2014 and 2018 series in which Ashwin played had better match performances against India which nobody brings up.
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I don't think anyone called it ATG? You're just a master at misdirecting the conversation into tangents no one cares about. It was compared to the attritional kumble effort because you nonsensically held the lack of 5fers against Ashwin and said kumble had more impact. He simply didn't. Kumble bowled great but he got those big hauls almost by default because there were no bowlers. He took 12-279 (!). Now, implying that that is some ATG effort like you have is also wrong.

Also, Lyon performances in 2014 and 2018 on the pitches ashwin didn't get to play in. You can look them up. He averages well over 40 in the games they both played, which is the fairest measure of equal conditions when comparing performances in such series.
 
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capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
OverratedSanity said:
I don't think anyone called it ATG? You're just a master at misdirecting the conversation into tangents no one cares about. It was compared to the attritional kumble effort because you nonsensically held the lack of 5fers against Ashwin. Kumble bowled great but he got those big hauls almost by default because there were no bowlers. He took 12-279 (!). Now, implying that that is some ATG effort like you have is also wrong.

Also, Lyon performances in 2014 and 2018 on the pitches ashwin didn't get to play in. You can look them up. He averages well over 40 in the games they both played, which is the fairest measure of equal conditions when comparing performances in such series.
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That was an ATG effort. Have you seen what the other bowlers have done of both the teams? Or how flat that pitch was in 2004 BGT? That is an ATG tour from Kumble in my book; he averages 5 runs less than his closest competitor and the second best bowler got 16 wickets against his 24.
 
OverratedSanity

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capt_Luffy said:
That was an ATG effort. Have you seen what the other bowlers have done of both the teams? Or how flat that pitch was in 2004 BGT? That is an ATG tour from Kumble in my book; he averages 5 runs less than his closest competitor and the second best bowler got 16 wickets against his 24.
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The tour as a whole yes. It was the best tours visiting spinner has had there for several decades.

That particular 12fer conceding almost 300? Nah, not for me. Not by a long shot. He took a day 1 5fer in the 08 tour that was more impressive.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
OverratedSanity said:
I don't think anyone called it ATG? You're just a master at misdirecting the conversation into tangents no one cares about. It was compared to the attritional kumble effort because you nonsensically held the lack of 5fers against Ashwin and said kumble had more impact. He simply didn't. Kumble bowled great but he got those big hauls almost by default because there were no bowlers. He took 12-279 (!). Now, implying that that is some ATG effort like you have is also wrong.
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Look above who just called it ATG.

I don't consider Kumble's 12fer ATG but better than Ashwins match performance in BG 2021.

OverratedSanity said:
Also, Lyon performances in 2014 and 2018 on the pitches ashwin didn't get to play in. You can look them up. He averages well over 40 in the games they both played, which is the fairest measure of equal conditions when comparing performances in such series.
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Fair enough but nobody brings up those Lyon games ,the assumption is that he just went flat against India when Ashwin toured which is not true.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
OverratedSanity said:
The tour as a whole yes. It was the best tours visiting spinner has had there for several decades.

That particular 12fer conceding almost 300? Nah, not for me. Not by a long shot. He took a day 1 5fer in the 08 your that was more impressive.
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I have had many arguments with Indian posters bracketing Kumble's series with Ashwin 2021.
 
OverratedSanity

OverratedSanity

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subshakerz said:
I have had many arguments with Indian posters bracketing Kumble's series with Ashwin 2021.
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Yes because you argued it was more impactful. It just wasn't. Our only win came off a spell where Agarkar ran through them and Tendulkar was more effective than kumble on day 5.This may seem like a pointless exercise in semantics but it's something you started.
 
JavaHurricane

JavaHurricane

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Lyon, by far. Others, such as Subs, have made good points already; but also, consider that Lyon handled Bazball fairly well, in away conditions rather unsuited for spin, right from the start of the Ashes till he was injured out of the tour. Ashwin, by contrast, looked largely clueless till Ranchi - and also was part of the spin attack that allowed Pope, who for the rest of the series was absolutely useless against spin, to make 196. All at home in spinning conditions.

Numerically: Lyon, in three innings, picked 9 wickets at 29.33, and an economy of 4, in three innings in the Ashes. Ashwin picked up 26 wickets in 10 innings at an average of 24.80, and an economy of 4.12. Ignore the nine wickets he got through downhill skiing at a disinterested England team in Dharamsala, and the numbers worsen to 17 wickets at 30.41 (economy improves slightly to 3.95).

Everything considered, it's not much of a contest.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
JavaHurricane said:
Lyon, by far. Others, such as Subs, have made good points already; but also, consider that Lyon handled Bazball fairly well, in away conditions rather unsuited for spin, right from the start of the Ashes till he was injured out of the tour. Ashwin, by contrast, looked largely clueless till Ranchi - and also was part of the spin attack that allowed Pope, who for the rest of the series was absolutely useless against spin, to make 196. All at home in spinning conditions.

Numerically: Lyon, in three innings, picked 9 wickets at 29.33, and an economy of 4, in three innings in the Ashes. Ashwin picked up 26 wickets in 10 innings at an average of 24.80, and an economy of 4.12. Ignore the nine wickets he got through downhill skiing at a disinterested England team in Dharamsala, and the numbers worsen to 17 wickets at 30.41 (economy improves slightly to 3.95).

Everything considered, it's not much of a contest.
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So.... Now we are just comparing their last English series; and ignoring the fact that Ashwin's mother was very ill, so much so that he left a match in between and will just right off his best match performance as England being 'disinterested' to make the series lose 3-2?? Got it. Thanks.
 
JavaHurricane

JavaHurricane

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Xix2565 said:
Lyon couldn't bowl out an injured and inexperienced Indian lineup in two Tests at Sydney and Brisbane. Australia hadn't lost at Brisbane in 33 years. Unforgivable in that context.
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A lineup containing Rohit, Pujara, Rahane and Pant. It's not a good look on Lyon, but they were all seasoned cricketers by then with good numbers against spin; and Lyon was pretty short of match practice at the time, thanks to the lockdowns. Not to mention that Sydney was a flat road (unlike Hyderabad), and Ashwin had already "matched" Lyon in that regard: Delhi 2017, when Ashwin and Jadeja failed to spin out Sri Lanka (of all teams) on a fifth day track at the Kotla.
 
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Xix2565

International Regular
JavaHurricane said:
A lineup containing Rohit, Pujara, Rahane and Pant. It's not a good look on Lyon, but they were all seasoned cricketers by then with good numbers against spin; and Lyon was pretty short of match practice at the time, thanks to the lockdowns. Not to mention that Sydney was a flat road (unlike Hyderabad), and Ashwin had already "matched" Lyon in that regard: Delhi 2017, when Ashwin and Jadeja failed to spin out Sri Lanka (of all teams) on a fifth day track at the Kotla.
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Lyon got smacked by Lord Thakur and Washington Sundar and gave up the fortress. Worse than Ashwin for sure bro.
 
X

Xix2565

International Regular
Lol this is crazy talk now, this is what Subzi complains about but it's by someone favouring Lyon smh.
 
JavaHurricane

JavaHurricane

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
capt_Luffy said:
So.... Now we are just comparing their last English series; and ignoring the fact that Ashwin's mother was very ill, so much so that he left a match in between and will just right off his best match performance as England being 'disinterested' to make the series lose 3-2?? Got it. Thanks.
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Ashwin's mom only fell ill on Day 2 of the Rajkot Test. Ashwin himself has confirmed this.
 
capt_Luffy

capt_Luffy

Cricketer Of The Year
JavaHurricane said:
Ashwin's mom only fell ill on Day 2 of the Rajkot Test. Ashwin himself has confirmed this.
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Yes. The 3rd Test. Ollie Pope genuinely played an ATG innings against not just Ashwin, but Bumrah, Jadeja, and inform Axar and Siraj as well; not to mention I believe Axar dropped the catch off of Ashwin's ball. Anyways; to put it mildly, Lyon's record in SC is slightly better than Ashwin in SENA, can be argued to be equal; Ashwin's record in SC is a no contest with Lyon in SENA
 
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