No discussion before but now there is, I think Lyon compared in a head to head is not considered some wild opinion here at all, which wouldn't be the case if Ashwin was viewed unanimously as an ATG. Just look at this poll.
Those who consider Anderson an ATG are likely to consider Ashwin one, as their threshold is lower.
Still not an answer. Like come on, you'd have to be blind to not read what I'm asking.
There are many non performing players in the team that can be replaced. Ashwin should have been like Murali or Warne, a permanent member in all conditions. Dont say there are no visible partial treatments going on. Ashwin had a 9 wicket tally in the match and Bumrah and Kuldeep were brought in by Rohit. And in the WTC final against NZ in the second innings, defending a low total, Ashwin was the only guy who took 2 wickets and he is removed by Kohli for no reason at all. He gets to bowl less in SENA countries and yet he finishes with 4 wickets in that match with just 25 total overs given to him while Bumrah was given 36 overs for zero wickets he took. This is just one example. In 25 total overs 4 wickets for a spinner is at a strike rate of 36 balls a wicket - thats above average figures. Not saying he should replace Bumrah and dont jump to conclusion i am against Bumrah - who is another legend and needs to be a permanent member in the squad. Just gave an example as how spinners also take wickets in such conditions. He needs a permanent slot unless he is injured. And thats my opinion.
How exactly does that argument work against Ashwin whose entire career is based off sporting pitches and whose numbers take a sharp dive as soon as he leaves the SC? How do we know those premodern pitches then we're all greater for spin compared to what Ashwin had at home?
Significant reputations, particularly Holding. But there's a minimum amount of playing thst people will usually demand to give out ATG labels. Pre injury Bishop was probably better than any of these guys, and a ton of people would judge all/some of them to be ATGs and not him.
Actually, I think we have made common understanding. What we call ATVG they consider low level ATG.
Again, if these older spinners were not being hampered by pitches not spinning a lot, then surely their numbers would be better than their skills suggest? So why give them a pass for this and discredit Ashwin for his play now? Like you keep saying Ashwin only played on sporting wickets at home but these same sporting wickets have Indian batters averaging 50‐60+ in the same period. So is this not a positive for Ashwin in that he can keep batters down better than anyone else he played against?
Then why mention that you don't consider them ATGs?
The old timers do have good numbers so your point is moot. Nobody is claiming they need better ones to prove themselves.
Irrelevant ad hominem.
Snideness aside, you haven't established the premises of your own questions, such as those old pitches being universally spin friendly, and are introducing new arguments too to just set up a bad faith pretense that I am not answering you.
Because those examples were brought to me as ATGs based on my question earlier in the thread, which you might have missed, and I don't consider them as such.
What about Gavaskar?
The point isn't moot at all? You haven't established that the pitches weren't a factor yet. Along with all my other questions that you've repeatedly failed to answer. Come on, be serious here.
Yeah, I would like to see how Tendulkar get ahead of Ashwin but Gavaskar does not.
So you are saying that Eng, Aus, WI and SA were all spin friendly then comparably to present day India? Is that your argument? I understand that moreso as the case of the time of Lohmann in the 19th century.
Why wouldn't they be spin friendly as we now understand it to be? Conditions matter when it comes to good records, especially as a spinner where the whole threat of spin comes from pitch behaviour. Look at all the great spinners of those countries, largely players who played in the past when conditions weren't what they are in the present.
I mean what is the problem there? His home conditions working against him doesn't suddenly make up for being outperformed on occasion home and away vs other spinners. You have plenty of sticks to beat him with (metaphorically).
Right, so you are just assuming they are universally spin friendly, that's what I thought. Maybe give some evidence if that is the basis of your argument.
Absolutely. Thankfully we don't have a nationalist brigade in Australia seeking to put Lyon on an ATG pedestal like we see with Ashwin, probably because they already have Warne and don't feel so insecure about it.
I hate this type of head-to-head argument. A player faces an entirely different lineup, can have a poor series or a good series, and this is irrelevant to how the opposition spinner is doing. We look at Lyon based on his home career in it's entirely and Ashwin based on how he performed when he toured without having to match them arbitrarily based on a series or two.