Is Ravichandran Ashwin an ATG test bowler?

[subshakerz]

Ashwin wins on longevity for me. Laker hardly played substantially away; and he missed the equal no. of Tests he played. That's a substantial point.

So Ashwin beats every premodern spinner by that count. It's a copout to put those conditions on Laker.

 

[capt_Luffy]

So Ashwin beats every premodern spinner by that count. It's a copout to put those conditions on Laker.

Bill O'Reilly did well enough in his limited chances to still be a tier above Ash; Laker by context, didn't. They're around equal at home, Laker isn't really much better away and Ashwin's longevity (and missing much fewer matches) tips the scale for me.

 

[subshakerz]

Bill O'Reilly did well enough in his limited chances to still be a tier above Ash; Laker by context, didn't. They're around equal at home, Laker isn't really much better away and Ashwin's longevity (and missing much fewer matches) tips the scale for me.

Laker should be treated as a full career by modern standards. Better home and away. Therefore he wins.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Laker should be treated as a full career by modern standards. Better home and away. Therefore he wins.

Laker missed half his matches. Won't consider him better at home really, more like equals; and his away record is pretty average with respect to the performances of other spinners there.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Most of us would call those lower tier ATGs, with ATVGs a step down.

Ah yes, the LTATGs who are slightly better than the UTATVGs (upper tier all time very goods).

 

[Socerer 01]

There is one more thing to consider. Being a non-Karnataka state south Indian, to seal a place in main playing 11 is a very hard task if not impossible as favouritism prevails among Mumbai and Karnataka belt followed by NCR. Generally even mediocre cricketers from north are given chances over a Tamil or Malayalam speaking South Indian. So with these bias against him, he has come thus far, it iscommendable. Some pacer with average impact value like Shardul Thakkur or Mohd Siraj will find a place in overseas tests which has been questioned by commentators like Sunil Gavaskar and Harsha Boghle time and again. If he is sidelined by Indian team owing to jealousy as he overthinks and is reckoned a captaincy material by Kohli and Rohit Sharma and have been opressed internally itself, where is the question of he being heralded as all time great. He saved Sydney test and won us a series in Bangladesh with the bat and has won the winning runs against Pakistan in a WC league match and have excelled as a match winner inspite of jealousy and politics. Some bowlers with consistant line without the craft of wrong ones like carrom ball and top spin are celebrated more than him like Jadeja or Lyon. In less than a year or so from now, mark my words, when he reaches 550 wickets and crosses 3500 runs he becomes all time second greatest after Stuart Broad and in two years if given that many opportunities to play, will go past Kumble and will remain the only one with 4000 runs and 600 wickets combo. At that time should he have picked a few overseas 5 wicket hauls, he'd knock the door of the hall of fame of the ATGs.

lol what is this mountain of text

there’s no bias against Tamil players ffs, look at how many of them played international cricket. Siraj is the worst eg to pick out, he was the best pacer in domestic cricket when he was picked and should have played back in 2018 against Afghanistan but our selectors and captain both were known to make **** selection choices then. and as hb said, he’s not even from Karnataka

i’ve said all along that Ashwin and Jadeja should have played more tests together overseas but saying that Ashwin didnt because of jealousy and politics is a **** take, they preferred a fourth pacer because of conditions

 

[Socerer 01]

Laker should be treated as a full career by modern standards. Better home and away. Therefore he wins.

love how you turn to reductive analysis like this to diss on Ashwin when its convenient and then bring out the PhD thesis for your “well akshually guys Ashwin suxx and here is my 531 word essay with handpicked statistics lacking context to prove that”

 

[subshakerz]

Laker missed half his matches. Won't consider him better at home really, more like equals; and his away record is pretty average with respect to the performances of other spinners there.

Ok let's disagree. I think you are giving too.nuch leeway to Ashwin.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Ok let's disagree. I think you are giving too.nuch leeway to Ashwin.

And I think you're ignoring the context of Laker's pretty away numbers; but disagree then.

 

[subshakerz]

love how you turn to reductive analysis like this to diss on Ashwin when its convenient and then bring out the PhD thesis for your “well akshually guys Ashwin suxx and here is my 531 word essay with handpicked statistics lacking context to prove that”

Ashwin is ATVG. He's done pretty well.

 

[subshakerz]

And I think you're ignoring the context of Laker's pretty away numbers; but disagree then.

We already agree that Laker is better away so no point arguing.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Some pacer with average impact value like Shardul Thakkur or Mohd Siraj will find a place in overseas tests which has been questioned by commentators like Sunil Gavaskar and Harsha Boghle time and again.

Regardless of what you think of his abilities, one thing you can’t label at him is that he’s had “average impact”

 

[Xix2565]

It's not better. Its just more accurate.

It's as annoying as English pundits saying Anderson was the best in the world right during Steyn's prime.

So it's better then no? Since it's subjective given your standards. Where's the accuracy?

 

[Xix2565]

So Ashwin beats every premodern spinner by that count. It's a copout to put those conditions on Laker.

I mean what is the case for them over him? Like if we consider conditions, a lot of them played in suitable spinning conditions, which is what you use to mark Ashwin down. Why is it okay to ignore favourable conditions in the past for certain players but hold it against the ones playing today?

 

[subshakerz]

So it's better then no? Since it's subjective given your standards. Where's the accuracy?

It is subjective since we each have our own definition of ATG.

 

[subshakerz]

I mean what is the case for them over him? Like if we consider conditions, a lot of them played in suitable spinning conditions, which is what you use to mark Ashwin down. Why is it okay to ignore favourable conditions in the past for certain players but hold it against the ones playing today?

Ok so Ashwin is better than O'Reilly then? Please clarify.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Ok so Ashwin is better than O'Reilly then? Please clarify.

He's a lot better right now that's for sure

 

[Xix2565]

Ok so Ashwin is better than O'Reilly then? Please clarify.

If you're not going to make the case for the other ATG spinners outside of Warne and Murali then what does your opinion count for? Isn't this what you ask other people to do for Ashwin or anyone else you don't fancy?

Why exactly should they be ATGs over Ashwin?

I do notice that you have a tendency to avoid answering when it's actually relevant though, so these along with the pitches query above should be answered first before any further discussion.

 

[Ashwinashwath]

lol what is this mountain of text

there’s no bias against Tamil players ffs, look at how many of them played international cricket. Siraj is the worst eg to pick out, he was the best pacer in domestic cricket when he was picked and should have played back in 2018 against Afghanistan but our selectors and captain both were known to make **** selection choices then. and as hb said, he’s not even from Karnataka

i’ve said all along that Ashwin and Jadeja should have played more tests together overseas but saying that Ashwin didnt because of jealousy and politics is a **** take, they preferred a fourth pacer because of conditions

I didnt say Siraj is from Karnataka. Karnataka, Mumbai, NCR and the rest of India are preferred over Tamil and Malayalee south Indian players. Thats what I said. And would Shane Warne or Murali be dropped for a say Kasparowicz or Damien Flemming just because the pitch assisted seamers? I would go on to say most batsmen including Rohit Sharma and Kohli were persisted with mediocre contribution for quite sometime while Ashwin had to prove time and again every single time he played. His stats are better and more consistant than relatively measuring batsmen in bowling equiivalent where we may say 10k club is more or less equal to 500 wickets, 4 wickets haul equals a century and 5 for is equal to more or less a 150 and 10 wickets in a match can be compared to centuries in both innings. In those comparisons Ashwin ranks above most Indian contemperory players. Politics and jealousy by the RS VK mafia in Indian cricket.

 

[centurymaker]

Absolutely disagree.