The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[howitzer]

Going to make 18 man squads for each of the 8 main Test nations operating under the basic premise of: 3 openers, 6 for the middle order with at least one player of those 9 having all-rounder credentials. 2 wicket keepers 5 quicks and 2 spinners. Some sides may vary from this slightly due to players available. I'll only be picking players who played the majority of their cricket in the 20th/21st centuries as the game was so different previously.
Australia:
Hayden, Simpson, Lawry.
Bradman, Smith, Border, Chappell, Waugh, Miller
Gilchrist, Healy
McGrath, Lillee, Lindwall, Davidson, Cummins
Warne, O'Reilly

Other posters will have different preferences for the opening slots which is fine. There are a number in contention and these are my three favourites. The middle order was difficult to decide with one out of Chappell/Waugh/Ponting missing out. I decided Smith was perfectly capable of covering 3 if something happened to Bradman and went this way. Another option would have been to ditch one of the pace bowlers but I didn't fancy that. There were a few options for Gilchrist's deputy but I prefer Healy. Border is the captain, with Bradman, Waugh and Simpson all very capable deputies.

England:
Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe
Hammond, Root, Barrington, May, Gower, Botham
Knott, Ames
Trueman, Barnes, Anderson, Snow, Bedser
Laker, Verity

Openers picked themselves. Middle-order was complicated as I didn't want zero lefties. Compton and Pietersen could deem themselves unlucky and I almost found myself excluding a bowler for the 'something a bit different' Pietersen offers. Classified Barnes as a pacer as I wanted both Laker and Verity. Bedser vs Statham very close with Willis (lucky that no balls didn't count towards bowling average back then) and Larwood (a bit meh outside one great series) also considered. Tyson just doesn't have the longevity and Broad too inconsistent. Hutton the captain. May deputises if something untoward happens to him.

India:
Gavaskar, Sehwag, Merchant
Tendulkar, Dravid, Kohli, Laxman, Pujara, Jadeja
Dhoni, Pant
Kapil, Bumrah, Shami, Srinath, Mohammad Nissar
Ashwin, Kumble,

Almost decided to put another spinner in here, but decided that a couple of the pace bowlers are a bit injury prone and the cover was necessary. Some might consider Jadeja slightly cheating as a batting all-rounder but he has gone well in the top 6/7 and my selected glovemen are both used to batting in the top six too. Pujara was selected over Hazare as he is better placed to cover Dravid, should that be necessary. A host of players, such as Kirmani, Engineer, Amar Singh, Zaheer Khan, Chandrasekhar and BS Bedi were also considered for this very hard to perfect squad. Kohli captains, with Gavaskar, Dhoni and Kapil all capable of covering if necessary.

New Zealand:
Turner, Sutcliffe, Dempster
Williamson, Crowe, Taylor, Fleming, Donnelly, JR Reid
Watling, McCullum
Cairns, Cowie, Boult, Southee, Wagner, Bond
Vettori

Options can get a tad thin on the ground in certain areas here leading Reid to be a nominal second spinner and the lower number of Tests of Dempster, Donnelly and Cowie all qualifying them as they did at least play for a decent time and were hindered by belonging to a side that played relatively few Tests and, in the case of the latter two, a World War. Their competition is mostly either underwhelming or current players who have longevity issues themselves. The extra pace bowling slot opened up the opportunity for a glass cannon, which I preferred Bond to Jamieson for, though the much less made of glass Bruce Taylor also came under consideration. Captain is seriously complicated here, with Fleming and McCullum not able to guarantee their place in the first XI. Hence I'm giving it to Williamson.

Will do the other 4 sides in a separate post.

 

[howitzer]

ok

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Going to make 18 man squads for each of the 8 main Test nations operating under the basic premise of: 3 openers, 6 for the middle order with at least one player of those 9 having all-rounder credentials. 2 wicket keepers 5 quicks and 2 spinners. Some sides may vary from this slightly due to players available. I'll only be picking players who played the majority of their cricket in the 20th/21st centuries as the game was so different previously.
Australia:
Hayden, Simpson, Lawry.
Bradman, Smith, Border, Chappell, Waugh, Miller
Gilchrist, Healy
McGrath, Lillee, Lindwall, Davidson, Cummins
Warne, O'Reilly

Other posters will have different preferences for the opening slots which is fine. There are a number in contention and these are my three favourites. The middle order was difficult to decide with one out of Chappell/Waugh/Ponting missing out. I decided Smith was perfectly capable of covering 3 if something happened to Bradman and went this way. Another option would have been to ditch one of the pace bowlers but I didn't fancy that. There were a few options for Gilchrist's deputy but I prefer Healy. Border is the captain, with Bradman, Waugh and Simpson all very capable deputies.

Trumper definitely. Trumper should definitely be a undisputed pick until we have England’s level of openers.

 

[howitzer]

Trumper definitely. Trumper should definitely be a undisputed pick unless we have England’s level of openers.

Trumper's average specifically as an opener is really not that much to write home about, even in the context of the era he played. His middle order record is excellent though and he would have been included in a squad that had weaker middle order batting, like England for example.

 

[howitzer]

Pakistan:
Hanif M, Anwar, Azhar Ali
YK, Miandad, Inzamam, Yousuf, Abbas, Mushtaq M
Rashid Latif, Mohammad Rizwan
Imran, Wasim, Waqar, Fazal, Shoaib
Saqlain, Abdul Qadir

A relatively easier squad to pick out with many names picking themselves. The main difficulties were the third opener and the wicket keepers. Wicket keepers is particularly fun as Rashid Latif was a better gloveman than Moin Khan but kept getting left out for Khan due to Khan supposedly being the better batsman. They retired with basically the same average. More recently Rizwan got left out for Sarfaraz, a similar calibre batsman but clearly inferior gloveman, particularly these days. Make it make sense. Given I think Bari's batting just too poor I'm confident I've picked the best two options here. Imran to captain, with several options to deputise.

South Africa:
Richards, Smith, Mitchell
G Pollock, Nourse, Amla, Bland, Kallis, Faulkner
Waite, de Villiers
Steyn, Donald, S Pollock, Procter, Rabada, Adcock
Tayfield

Like New Zealand, South Africa struggle for highly rated spinners, though they do at least have one great one. Bland would be seen as a niche selection here but with de Villiers covering both wk and middle-order deputising and Bland having a pretty decent batting record himself means I can accommodate him as a specialist 12th man. I could perhaps have selected Rice in his place as captaincy deputising for Smith isn't ideal but I decided I wanted the players to have played at least one Test. I also left out Van der Bijl for the same reason.

Sri Lanka:
Jayasuriya, Karunaratne, Atapattu
Sangakkara, Jayawardene, de Silva, Ranatunga, Mathews, Chandimal, Hashan Tillakaratne
Jayawardene
Vaas, Malinga, Lakmal, Rumesh Ratnayake
Murali, Herath, Jayasuriya

Beyond a few names the bowling is a bit of a worry. That's all I have to say on the matter. I believe Ranatunga's captaincy is superior enough that he should be in the first team over a somewhat superior batsman like Mathews. Jayawardene to deputise.

West Indies:
Greenidge, Hunte
Richards, Lara, Headley, Weekes, Worrell, Lloyd, Sobers
Dujon, Walcott
Marshall, Ambrose, Holding, Garner, Roberts, Walsh
Gibbs

I've decided that a middle-order bat should replace an opener in an emergency. Kanhai and Chanderpaul were other options considered. It made sense to take the extra quick over someone like Ramadhin or Valentine as well. Lloyd and Worrell can't guarantee a place in the first XI so I've gone with Richards as captain over Sobers.

This was fun.

 

[capt_Luffy]

18 men Squads:


Australia:


Victor Trumper
Bob Simpson
Matthew Hayden

Sir Don Bradman
Steve Smith
Greg Chappell
Allan Border
Steve Waugh

Keith Miller

Adam Gilchrist
Ian Healy

Shane Warne
Bill O'Reilly
Hugh Trumble

Glenn McGrath
Dennis Lillee
Ray Lindwall
Alan Davidson

Lawry, Morris and Ponsford are all very close competitors for the spot of Trumper's partner. With honourable mentions to both Harvey and Hill, Ponting misses out due to Border and Waugh offering more (a lefty and being much more suited to bat at 5/6). Trumble is there over Grimmett, Benaud and Cummins as I think the team needs a good off spinner; and he makes the cut over Lyon.


West Indies:


Gordon Greenidge
Conrad Hunte
Roy Fredericks

Brian Lara
Viv Richards
George Headley
Everton Weekes
Frank Worrell

Garry Sobers

Clyde Walcott
Jeff Dujon

Lance Gibbs
Alf Valentine

Malcolm Marshall
Curtly Ambrose
Michael Holding
Joel Garner
Courtney Walsh


Worrell is there over guys like Lloyd, Kanhai and Chanderpaul due to his ability to open the innings, bowl decent left arm medium and being an exceptional captain. Valentine over Ramadhin for diversity purpose as Gibbs is already there. Roberts unlucky to miss out to Walsh.


England:


William Gilbert Grace
Jack Hobbs
Len Hutton

Wally Hammond
Ken Barrington
Joe Root
Kumar Ranjitsinhji

Ian Botham
Wilfred Rhodes

Les Ames
Alan Knott

Jim Laker
Hedley Verity

Sydney Barnes
Fred Trueman
James Anderson
Brian Statham
Harold Larwood

Herbert Sutcliffe is the unluckiest player among them all; he would had been a sure shot in the playing XI of any other team but this; but the presence of WG, Hobbs and Hutton makes his selection less beneficiary. I was thinking hard between Ranji and Compton, two players with insane peer ratings; and ultimately went with the former as he was more ahead of his peers than the latter. Rhodes is their due to his immense versatility. And lastly, Bedser missed out to Statham as the presence of Barnes makes other mediums less useful; Statham makes the cut barely over Willis, Snow, Broad and Richardson; while Larwood squeezes in as I need a high pacer; and he is just ahead of Tyson.


South Africa:


Barry Richards
Graeme Smith
Bruce Mitchell

Graeme Pollock
Dudley Nourse
Hashim Amla

Jacques Kallis
Mike Procter
Shaun Pollock
Aubrey Faulkner

A B de Villiers
Denis Lindsay

Hugh Tayfield
Bert Vogler

Dale Steyn
Allan Donald
Kagiso Rabada
Vernon Philander

Eddie Barlow and Trevor Goddard misses out due to having many great All-rounders and a strong opening. It was coin toss between Denis Lindsay, John Waite and Jock Cameron, with a very honourable mention to Quinton de Kock. I considered Keshav Maharaj for the Vogler's spot as I already have Faulkner; but ultimately decided they worked good together. Neil Adcock just barely misses out to Philander as I already have 3 great high pacers and needed a medium for versatility.


India:


Sunil Gavaskar
Virendra Sehwag
Vijay Merchant

Sachin Tendulkar
Rahul Dravid
Virat Kohli
V V S Laxman
Vijay Hazare

Kapil Dev
Ravindra Jadeja
Ravichandran Ashwin

M S Dhoni
Rishabh Pant

Anil Kumble
B S Chandrashekhar

Jasprit Bumrah
Mohammad Shami
Zaheer Khan

I found the 8 batting slots surprisingly easy and well balanced. Engineer and Saha misses out just to Pant. Chandrashekhar offers more than Bedi, Gupte, Prasanna or another Jadeja back-up in Mankad. As I was left with the last pace option between Zaheer, Srinath, Amar Singh and Nissar; Zaheer pulls it for being a left hander.


Pakistan:

Hanif Mohammad
Saeed Anwar
Majid Khan

Javed Miandad
Younis Khan
Inzamam-ul-Haq
Zaheer Abbas
Mohammad Yousuf

Imran Khan
Mushtaq Mohammed

Mohammad Rizwan
Imtiaz Ahmed

Saqlain Mushtaq
Abdul Qadir

Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Shoaib Akhtar
Fazal Mahmood

Almost all the picks are clear off of many too close competitors barring the wicket keepers; among whom great batsmen and good keepers in Rizwan and Imtiaz gets the nod over good bat, poor keeps like Sarfaraz and Kamran and good keep, poor bats like Wasim Bari and Latiff; Moin Khan came the closest.

New Zealand:

Glenn Turner
Bert Sutcliffe
John Wright

Kane Williamson
Martin Crowe
Ross Taylor
Martin Donnelly
Stephen Fleming

Richard Hadlee
Chris Cairns
John Richard Reid
Daniel Vettori

B J Watling
Brendon McCullum

John Bracewell

Trent Boult
Neil Wagner
Shane Bond

For the third opener, it was hair splitting between Wright, Dempster, Latham, Conway and Richardson; just went with Wright. The middle order is more or less set as are the All-rounders and the wicket keepers. John Bracewell makes it over a 5th front line pacer like Southee, Cowie, Jamieson or Bruce Taylor as the team severely lacks spinners.

Sri Lanka:

Sanath Jayasuriya
Dimuth Karunaratne
Tilakratna Dilshan

Aravinda De Silva
Mahela Jayawardene
Angelo Mathews
Arjuna Ranatunga

Kumar Sangakkara
Dinesh Chandimal
Hasant Tilakratne
Prasanna Jayawardene

Muttiah Muralitharan
Rangana Herath
Somachandra De Silva

Chamunda Vaas
Lasith Malinga
Dilhara Fernando
Ashantha De Mel


Marvanam Atapattu had to be on the end of the short stick; as all the top 4 SL openers are really close. Thillan Samaraweera, Roy Dias and Asunka Gurusinha are just edged out by Hasant Tilakratne. Sri Lanka had many great keeping options and with three good enough to just play as batsman (one even being their best by a fair margin); I decided to go with a 3rd and that one a more text book keeper. The pace options were limited and for the other 3 slots except Vaas; Kulasekhara, Lakmal and both of the Ratnayakes were considered.


Zimbabwe:

Grant Flower
Hamilton Masakadza
Alistair Campbell

Murray Goodwin
Sean Williams
Sikander Raza
Craig Ervine

Neil Johnson

Andy Flower
David Houghton
Brendan Taylor
Tatenda Taibu

Paul Strang
Ray Price

Heath Streak
Kyle Jarvis
Andy Blignaught
Henry Olonga

Guy Whittall just misses out to Campbell. Sean Ervine is also a bit unlucky. Many of Zimbabwe's great batsmen (including their best by a fairer margin), so I went 4 keeps who all could be it the squad just as batsmen. Pommie Mbangwa, David Brain, Bryan Strang, Eddo Brandes and Graeme Cremer all were strong contenders.

Bangladesh:

Tamim Iqbal
Mahmudul Hasan Joy
Zakir Hasan

Monimul Haque
Habibul Bashar
Mahmudullah
Najmul Hossain Shanto
Mohammad Ashraful

Mushfiqur Rahim
Litton Das

Shakib Al Hasan

Mehedy Hasan Miraj
Taijul Islam
Mohammad Rafique

Shoriful Islam
Mustafizur Rahman
Mashrafe Mortaza
Taskin Ahmed

Mohammad Ashraful could be replaced by a handful of batsmen like Nasir Hossain, Naeem Ali, Soumya Sarkar, Sabbir Rahman, Junaid Siddiqui, Aminul Haque and Tushar Imran. Khaled Mashud is unlucky as both the keepers are among Bangladesh's best batsmen. The last pacer spot also could had very well gone to Rubel, Tapash, Ebadat or Robalinda.

 

[Coronis]

Bangladesh:

Imrul Keyes
Mahmudul Hasan Joy
Zakir Hasan

Monimul Haque
Habibul Bashar
Mahmudullah
Najmul Hossain Shanto
Mohammad Ashraful

Mushfiqur Rahim
Litton Das

Shakib Al Hasan

Mehedy Hasan Miraj
Taijul Islam
Mohammad Rafique

Shoriful Islam
Mustafizur Rahman
Mashrafe Mortaza
Taskin Ahmed

Mohammad Ashraful could be replaced by a handful of batsmen like Nasir Hossain, Naeem Ali, Soumya Sarkar, Sabbir Rahman, Junaid Siddiqui, Aminul Haque and Tushar Imran. Khaled Mashud is unlucky as both the keepers are among Bangladesh's best batsmen. The last pacer spot also could had very well gone to Rubel, Tapash, Ebadat or Robalinda.

Never heard of Tamim Iqbal?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think the other Smith is showing the modern day opener tax may be a thing

Nah not really, he's just not in form anymore

Smith from 2014-2019 would be the same opening as he was at 3 or 4

 

[honestbharani]

Graeme Smith (c)
Virender Sehwag
Brian Lara
Sachin Tendulkar
Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Shaun Pollock
Shane Warne
Wasim Akram
Dale Steyn
Muttiah Muralitharan


Ravi Jadeja
Steve Smith
Curtly Ambrose
Glenn McGrath

 

[Coronis]

Graeme Smith (c)
Virender Sehwag
Brian Lara
Sachin Tendulkar
Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist (wk)
Shaun Pollock
Shane Warne
Wasim Akram
Dale Steyn
Muttiah Muralitharan


Ravi Jadeja
Steve Smith
Curtly Ambrose
Glenn McGrath

Players who played in the 21st century only?

 

[Spark]

Nah not really, he's just not in form anymore

Smith from 2014-2019 would be the same opening as he was at 3 or 4

Smith in 2019 might as well have been opening

 

[Line and Length]

I've enjoyed reading all of these various teams/squads and really appreciate the thought and effort that has been put in.

I'm going off on a tangent here. I'm selecting a team that I have seen live and was most entertained by. Consequently, a lot of ATG players are overlooked as entertainment value is the key.

Colin Milburn - forget Bazball, this guy could bat. His loss to Test cricket due to an accident was a tragedy.
Roy Fredericks - another free flowing stroke maker who was fun to watch.
Viv Richards - a must for any such team.
David Gower - If he was any more relaxed he'd be comatose, but his stroke play was sublime.
Ian Chappell - for his left field captaincy and his willingness to attack.
Doug Walters - you never knew what to expect but always fun to watch.
Ian Botham - at his peak a 'must have'.
Alan Knott/Adam Gilchrist - different forms of entertainment and hard to split.
Wes Hall - to see him pushing off the sight screen again.
Merv Hughes - loved to bring fun into the game.
Phil Tufnell - purely for a laugh at his fielding

12th man - Jonty Rhodes/Derek Randall - both brilliant in the field.

My apologies to our SC members. I have seen some great players from your part of the world but couldn't quite fit any in.

 

[honestbharani]

Players who played in the 21st century only?

Players I have seen.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Never heard of Tamim Iqbal?

****!!! Thought of Tamim Iqbal and typed Keyes....

 

[bagapath]

New Zealand:
Turner, Sutcliffe, Dempster
Williamson, Crowe, Taylor, Fleming, Donnelly, JR Reid
Watling, McCullum
Cairns, Cowie, Boult, Southee, Wagner, Bond
Vettori

no Richard Hadlee??????

 

[honestbharani]

no Richard Hadlee??????

He is no Chris Woakes tbf. @Red_Ink_Squid

 

[howitzer]

no Richard Hadlee??????

And I knew I was going to forget someone. Gilchrist and now Hadlee. If I keep making these I'll end up being able to pick a good all-time XI using only players I've omitted.

 

[howitzer]

I can still afford the glass cannon so Hadlee in for Southee. Boult is a left-arm option and Wagner a specialist old-ball bowler so offer something different.

 

[kyear2]

Picked up a few interesting nuggets going through some of the editorials for the Cricinfo all time world XI

1. I'm not as alone in my thinking a some would have me believe, as illustrated by the Gideon Haigh article below. One being the different criteria to be considered while choosing such a team and which version of the players do we choose.

2. There was somewhat of an argument / suggestion that Warne would have been a good captain, screw it, the best captain for that motley crew. Apparently having the largest or more accuracy the most uncontrollable ego is enough to warrant consideration.

3. I do recall it being quite a big deal when it was released. Made the local papers here, like large centrefold layouts, it was crazy.

4. In multiple of said editorials, it was referenced that the vote helped to answer the question of who were the 3rd and 4th best of all time, with the answers being Warne and Sachin. If we approached our team selection with a similar approach our top 5 would be very different and would have Marshall, Gilchrist and Hobbs filling it out.

5. Speaking of Warne, never understood how even the SL selector voted for him over Murali, that one was a bit of a shock.

6. Not that it matters for much, if anything at all. But Sir Garry was referenced multiple times as the greatest cricketer of all time. Yes it is acknowledge by some that it is basically a two man race, nut most here does consider him to be an easy 2nd in that race.
I have seen articles over the years with similar comps between cricketers. Tendulkar and Kallis were featured in one, and that regardless that Sachin was undoubtedly the better batsman, Kallis was equally unquestioned as the better cricketer due to his catching and bowling. More surprisingly was one with regards to Hammond and the great man himself. Yes, The Don led by leagues with the bat, but Hammond was no slouch there himself, and was boosted by his peerless ability at 1st and his under rated and quite useful bowling.

7. That outside of Bradman and Sobers, there were no right and wrong answers. Someone would disagree or find a reason to argue against any of said players. Knott could easily be preferred over Gilchrist due to his unquestionably superior glove work. Sachin's longevity, consistency and untouchable records and Marshall's perfectly rounded record, skill set and extra pace probably outs them as close as any though. Even Hobbs who we would add to that list somehow barely made that team.

8. And lastly and definitely least importantly and likely of interest only to me. When discussing the captaincy of this distinguished group, one of the questions were, who could curb Sobers's enthusiasm as it related to wanting to bowl and be content to stand at slip. Even they apparently agree than there is where was best utilized and his bowling was probably better used in short spells to rest the main guys. Can we imagine the carnage of a rested Sobers coming in at 4 after the Don and batting with him. Grafters and grinders be damned, the bowlers would beg for mercy. Combinations better to watch on this team, Marshall possibly bowling in tandem with Warne? Express pace and big turning leggies seems an ideal and deadly combination. Or one of the reverse swingers (Steyn / Imran) and Warne, with the older ball. And yes, find a way to get Hammond as 12th man so he can come on when the bowlers are temporarily "injured" and have to go off the field. Him and Sobers (and possibly Smith?) operating next to each other in the cordon would be magical to watch with this attack.

Anyways, that's the end of my ramble.

 

[Coronis]

I do like Gideon Haigh.