The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[kyear2]

How can you rate slip catchers and fielders you haven't watched ?

Most of the ones listed I have seen, even Chappell and Sobers I've seen more than a fair bit of on YouTube. Simpson, Hammond, Sobers peer reviews and ratings were beyond sterling. Hammond's slip fielding is spoken of in the same realm as Bradman's batting and higher than his own, Simpson's and Sobers's not too far behind. All 3 are beyond reproach for this exercise. @peterhrt has Barlow up there as well, and that also matches peer review but I had a cutoff to account for longevity. Actually Barlow, Mitchell and Procter are all spoken extremely highly of.

 

[Prince EWS]

I've said that I don't find the openers ideal a d in the subsequent post listed the openers I would ideally prefer.
I would also love Hobbs, but I find it hard to include players we haven't seen in any capacity to gauge how I would believe they would perform against "modern" bowlers. I know though that he was the best if his era and among the best if all time.

For keepers? Multiple reasons.

1. Not knowledgeable enough
2. The best ones were often not selected based on that skill alone so already skewed
3. Tallon, Gout, Taylor, Knott, Russell, Blackham, Cameron, Dujon, Evans, the differences / nuances are difficult to separate. Dujon was by far the best keeper I've ever seen to pace, but less so vs spin. Pace is more important now, but spin moreso in the past, how to balance.
4. To add to no. 2, even further back batting was prioritized over pure keeping, so the sample sizes of the very best keepers are somewhat reduced at best. The keeper selected for ATG teams wasn't a to 15 keeper, so that alone speaks volumes. Even Ames and Knott(?) was selected also because they could hold a bat.

Batting is prioritised over slip fielding in selection as well. Even more so.

 

[kyear2]

Batting is prioritised over slip fielding in selection as well. Even more so.

The first reason I wrote down was not knowledgeable enough.
Then the second issue was do you go with the best glove men or the best wicketkeeper batsmen
It's my list and I went with what I'm knowledgeable about.

And to your point, yes it is but it's still prioritized though. I don't know how to get this across, but guys like Hooper kept their place longer than they should be use of his ability and when I look at the careers of Marshall, Steyn, Ambrose, McGrath, Hadlee the slip cordon was massive part of their success and it's apparent that that wasn't by coincidence, similarly non coincidentally the top 2 teams of all time had superb cordons as well.
Meanwhile you can't get a gig as a test keeper unless your barring average exceeds 30.

Probably should have stopped after the first paragraph, but hey.

 

[kyear2]

How can you rate slip catchers and fielders you haven't watched ?

How do you rate batsmen and bowlers, keepers you've never seen? Almost none of us have seen Knott, how do you know who was better among Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, all the 60's batsmen the May's, Compton's etc. It's really no different.

 

[OverratedSanity]

How do you rate batsmen and bowlers, keepers you've never seen? Almost none of us have seen Knott, how do you know who was better among Hobbs, Hutton, Sutcliffe, all the 60's batsmen the May's, Compton's etc. It's really no different.

Hmm, I think batting and bowling stats are reliable indicators of quality in a way fielding/keeping stats aren't. You can gauge roughly at least how effective these players were in their specialist disciplines. Scorecards and match reports also focus far more on the batting vs bowling contest than they ever do for fielding unlesss on those rare occasions where a fielder pulls off something truly exceptional.

With Knott in particular, there's more than enough actual footage out there of his catches that show his quality, though I actually admit even there it's tough to make a definitive judgement because only watching full games would you actually be able to notice how clean his keeping is.

 

[kyear2]

Hmm, I think batting and bowling stats are reliable indicators of quality in a way fielding/keeping stats aren't. You can gauge roughly at least how effective these players were in their specialist disciplines. Scorecards and match reports also focus far more on the batting vs bowling contest than they ever do for fielding unlesss on those rare occasions where a fielder pulls off something truly exceptional.

With Knott in particular, there's more than enough actual footage out there of his catches that show his quality, though I actually admit even there it's tough to make a definitive judgement because only watching full games would you actually be able to notice how clean his keeping is.

The only players I referenced that there's little no no footage of is Hammond and from all of the literature out there, does anyone question his quality.

This this is much to do about morning tbh. There's posters who have seen Simpson and Sobers and Sobers in particular has lots of footage online.

 

[Coronis]

So a touring squad is normally like ~15 players? If I was to build an ATG squad I’d probably want 2 spare bowlers and 2 spare batsmen - but then of course you run the risk of being without a specialist keeper if something happened. (though tbf Gilchrist played every single test he was available for)

 

[TheJediBrah]

So a touring squad is normally like ~15 players? If I was to build an ATG squad I’d probably want 2 spare bowlers and 2 spare batsmen - but then of course you run the risk of being without a specialist keeper if something happened. (though tbf Gilchrist played every single test he was available for)

Simple, just bring Sangakkara or ABdV. ATG (or close enough) batsmen and more than capable keepers

 

[Coronis]

Simple, just bring Sangakkara or ABdV. ATG (or close enough) batsmen and more than capable keepers

Yeah I was probably overthinking it.

On that note my ATG squad would be (alphabetical order)

Bradman*, Gilchrist, Hadlee, Hammond, Hobbs, Imran, McGrath, Marshall, Muralitharan, Sangakkara, Smith, Sobers, Sutcliffe, Tendulkar, Warne

Murali an obvious choice, and Sanga for the reasons discussed above. Smith would be my next choice middle order anyway and he or Tendulkar could open if something were to happen to Hobbs/Sutcliffe. Normally I’d pick Steyn or Ambrose over Imran but for this idea due to his extra batting, e.g if Sobers was injured his batting is extra valuable to the weakened side and strengthens the bowling even more (pretty good 5th option). Could also perhaps sub him in for Hammond on a particularly pace friendly pitch if I still wanted to keep a spinner.

 

[capt_Luffy]

My ATG squad would be:

Jack Hobbs
W G Grace
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Steve Smith
Brian Lara
Adam Gilchrist
Garry Sobers
Imran Khan
Richard Hadlee
Shane Warne
Muttiah Muralitharan
Malcolm Marshall
Glenn McGrath

And the 3 additional tourists they will carry for any injury purposes:

Viv Richards
Kumar Sangakkara
Sydney Barnes

 

[kyear2]

So a touring squad is normally like ~15 players? If I was to build an ATG squad I’d probably want 2 spare bowlers and 2 spare batsmen - but then of course you run the risk of being without a specialist keeper if something happened. (though tbf Gilchrist played every single test he was available for)

Don't they normally send in an emergency keeper of the first one goes down?

 

[howitzer]

Don't they normally send in an emergency keeper of the first one goes down?

These days, yeah. Back in the day when this wasn't a thing, touring parties were a fair bit bigger than 15. You'd tend to have 18 or so which was a good bit easier to have a second gloveman in.

 

[kyear2]

Squad of 18 then, umm....

Hobbs, Smith*, Hutton
Bradman
Richards, Tendulkar, Smith / Lara
Sobers, Kallis
Gilchrist+
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee / Imran
Warne, Muralitharan


Injury reserves

Hammond
Sangakkara
Ambrose
Gavaskar

Proxima is really far away.

 

[howitzer]

Squad of 18 then, umm....

Hobbs, Smith*, Hutton
Bradman
Richards, Tendulkar, Smith / Lara
Sobers, Kallis
Gilchrist+
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee / Imran
Warne, Muralitharan


Injury reserves

Hammond
Sangakkara
Ambrose
Gavaskar

Proxima is really far away.

The selection of Graeme Smith is an interesting one. I'd be having Gavaskar there with Sutcliffe his main competition. The whole point of the 18 man squad was that there should be two gloving options there. Whether that's someone who also provides middle-order coverage like Sangakkara or a more direct wicket keeping replacement like Knott one should be there. The 18 man squad should be self sustainable without injury reserves as was tradition until relatively recently. With that in mind my 18 would be:

Hobbs, Hutton, Gavaskar
Bradman, Tendulkar, Lara, Richards
Sobers, Kallis
Gilchrist, Knott
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee, Imran
Warne, Muralitharan

Edit: Kallis v Smith and Steyn v Ambrose the really tricky choices for me here.

 

[Coronis]

Oh you guys got 18 wahhh. Do people actually send 18 man squads out on tours? I thought it was generally around 15.

 

[_00_deathscar]

My ATG team would be:
Hobbs, Gavaskar
Bradman, Sachin, Smith
Sobers
Gilchrist
Imran
McGrath, Murali, Hadlee

Squad:
Hutton
Richards
Sangakkara
Warne
Jadeja
The Lord
Steyn

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

Squad

Hobbs, Hutton
Bradman, Smith, Richards, Tendulkar
Sobers, Kallis
Gilchrist, Knott
Imran
Marshall, Barnes, McGrath, Steyn, Hadlee,
O’Reilly, Murali

First 11

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman*
Smith
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist+
Imran
Marshall
O’Reilly
McGrath

Injury reserves

Hammond
Warne
Laker

 

[howitzer]

Oh you guys got 18 wahhh. Do people actually send 18 man squads out on tours? I thought it was generally around 15.

Having a squad that small is a relatively recent development and comes with it injury replacements. For the majority of Test history 18 or 19 has been usual, but without injury replacements.

 

[kyear2]

The selection of Graeme Smith is an interesting one. I'd be having Gavaskar there with Sutcliffe his main competition. The whole point of the 18 man squad was that there should be two gloving options there. Whether that's someone who also provides middle-order coverage like Sangakkara or a more direct wicket keeping replacement like Knott one should be there. The 18 man squad should be self sustainable without injury reserves as was tradition until relatively recently. With that in mind my 18 would be:

Hobbs, Hutton, Gavaskar
Bradman, Tendulkar, Lara, Richards
Sobers, Kallis
Gilchrist, Knott
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee, Imran
Warne, Muralitharan

Edit: Kallis v Smith and Steyn v Ambrose the really tricky choices for me here.

I think the other Smith is showing the modern day opener tax may be a thing and he's the best the past 30 years and played on some spicy home pitches. @Coronis is right, I want some aggression and it's him or Greenidge and I love the LH option. Hutton is there if he can't hack it. I also like him as a captain of a squad like this.

The squad is also really a 16 man one with Lara and Imran being close but just behind Smith and Hadlee.

 

[kyear2]

Ok a straight squad, but stick with Smith and add a reserve keeper.

Hobbs, Smith, Hutton
Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Smith
Sobers, Kallis
Gilchrist, Knott
Marshall, Steyn, McGrath, Hadlee, Imran
Warne, Muralitharan

Need depth at the fast bowling position so Imran gets in over Lara who I really wanted on the squad and whom Smith just beats out. Hammond and Ambrose also just missed out and deserving of spots. Gavaskar also in of the Smith pick gets vetoed by the board.

Yeah, likely to change my mind on the Smith / Lara choice.