Tendulkar and McGrath or Smith and Hadlee

[Coronis]

Hadlee during his peak in the mid-80s would also be ahead of McGrath. If he take peaks, this isn't close.

McGrath also had a great peak.

5 year peaks

Hadlee (83-88) 33 matches 193 @ 18.39 19 5’fers
McGrath (99-05) 55 matches 257 wickets @ 18.78 12 5’fers

Hadlee’s peak is better but “this isn’t close” is stretching it.

(note: Hadlee’s numbers go to 192 @ 17.98 if you exclude his first innings 1/98 vs England in the first match of this stretch - however I don’t like splitting up matches in terms of peak stats tbh)

 

[subshakerz]

McGrath also had a great peak.

5 year peaks

Hadlee (83-88) 33 matches 193 @ 18.39 19 5’fers
McGrath (99-05) 55 matches 257 wickets @ 18.78 12 5’fers

Hadlee’s peak is better but “this isn’t close” is stretching it.

(note: Hadlee’s numbers go to 192 @ 17.98 if you exclude his first innings 1/98 vs England in the first match of this stretch - however I don’t like splitting up matches in terms of peak stats tbh)

Clarifying, this isnt close meaning Smith's and Hadlee's peaks combined.

 

[kyear2]

I agree it's close on the primary skills, hence the conundrum. Does the secondary ones overcome that small if existing deficit.

 

[ma1978]

I voted Smith and Hadlee because for a single match or a series Hadlee brings batting to the table.

But for a career, you have to go with Tendulkar and Mcgrath because you can’t replace Tendulkars 20+ years of excellence

 

[Bolo.]

I agree it's close on the primary skills, hence the conundrum. Does the secondary ones overcome that small if existing deficit.

You think that Sachin and Mcgrath had better peaks in primary discipline?

 

[kyear2]

You think that Sachin and Mcgrath had better peaks in primary discipline?

I think overall that Sachin and McGrath are slightly / incrementally better in their primary disciplines. Just think they had slightly better intangibles.

If I would pluck them out of history at their very best, it's pretty close.

But hence the premise of the thread, would the secondary skills push the latter two ahead even if they are marginally behind with their primary ones.

This isn't about who had the better or longer career, it's who, raking all skills into consideration would you want for a series or a year for a WTC championship or for a home and away double tour vs Proxima B.

 

[subshakerz]

I think overall that Sachin and McGrath are slightly / incrementally better in their primary disciplines. Just think they had slightly better intangibles.

If I would pluck them out of history at their very best, it's pretty close.

But hence the premise of the thread, would the secondary skills push the latter two ahead even if they are marginally behind with their primary ones.

This isn't about who had the better or longer career, it's who, raking all skills into consideration would you want for a series or a year for a WTC championship or for a home and away double tour vs Proxima B.

You are mixing criteria. It's one thing to pick them based on them performing median level, another to pick them performing peak level.

 

[kyear2]

You are mixing criteria. It's one thing to pick them based on them performing median level, another to pick them performing peak level.

For an ATG XI I'm taking Sobers from '66, Marshall from '83/ '84
As I said, taking them from their peak, I don't think we going median level.

 

[subshakerz]

For an ATG XI I'm taking Sobers from '66, Marshall from '83/ '84
As I said, taking them from their peak, I don't think we going median level.

Then we don't need to talk about these guys only. We can take Waqar early 90s and Botham early peak too.

You either select them as ATGs expecting them to perform as they would overall, or if going by peaks then open it up to all players since they don't need to reach ATG output to be the best at their peak.

 

[kyear2]

Then we don't need to talk about these guys only. We can take Waqar early 90s and Botham early peak too.

You either select them as ATGs expecting them to perform as they would overall, or if going by peaks then open it up to all players since they don't need to reach ATG output to be the best at their peak.

Carry along merrily Subz.

You're well aware that we're staring off with a shortlist with the guys who have proven themselves to be in this tier.

But you're trying to prove that Sachin's long term quality should factor in here., that's what got him into consideration to start with.

And you're missing the entire premise of the thread. I'm deliberately trying to stay away from whose best in primary skill argument to focus on, even if slightly behind. Does the peripheral qualities overcome any perceived deficit... That's it.

 

[subshakerz]

Carry along merrily Subz.

You're well aware that we're staring off with a shortlist with the guys who have proven themselves to be in this tier.

But you're trying to prove that Sachin's long term quality should factor in here., that's what got him into consideration to start with.

And you're missing the entire premise of the thread. I'm deliberately trying to stay away from whose best in primary skill argument to focus on, even if slightly behind. Does the peripheral qualities overcome any perceived deficit... That's it.

And like I said, it's a non-contest since most of us would agree Smith and Hadlee are better in their peaks anyways in batting and bowling regardless of peripheral qualities. So you should have said as overall players to make it closer.

 

[kyear2]

And like I said, it's a non-contest since most of us would agree Smith and Hadlee are better in their peaks anyways in batting and bowling regardless of peripheral qualities. So you should have said as overall players to make it closer.

Or fully factor in both, but with an eye towards when you're selecting them from.

Think that's the best way to phrase it.

 

[kyear2]

Way closer than anticipated, though the bat deep brigade would have pushed option no. 2.

 

[Coronis]

Way closer than anticipated, though the bat deep brigade would have pushed option no. 2.

Tbf the OP wasn’t that specific as to what you wanted to vote on i.e their overall value for a team or just their primary skills. I’d vote either way depending on the criteria.

 

[kyear2]

Tbf the OP wasn’t that specific as to what you wanted to vote on i.e their overall value for a team or just their primary skills. I’d vote either way depending on the criteria.

I thought I made it clear that it was to be on overall value to the team.

Basically does their secondary skill override any deficit on the primary disciplines.

I think in both instances it should. But I genuinely prefer Tendulkar and McGrath based on primary skills alone, but can't ignore the befits offered by Hadlee's batting and Smith's catching.

Hadlee is an upgrade at 8 and extends the batting to 10/11 and Smith would give a dream cordon of himself, Sobers and any of Richards / Sunny or if I can talk myself into it G. Smith

 

[kyear2]

For @Coronis your team it would be Hammond, Sobers and Smith, don't think that can be beaten, equalled maybe but not bettered. That's quality.

 

[subshakerz]

I switched. I think the marginal benefits of Tendulkar and McGrath in primary skills are enough to overtake Hadlees batting.

 

[kyear2]

I switched. I think the marginal benefits of Tendulkar and McGrath in primary skills are enough to overtake Hadlees batting.

It's Hadlee's batting plus having an ace at 3rd slip / 1st slip for Warne.

You have the greatest pace attack ever assembled (Marshall - Steyn - McGrath / Hadlee) with all three of them specializing in taking the ball away from the batsman and all accustomed to specialist cordons.

 

[kyear2]

I switched. I think the marginal benefits of Tendulkar and McGrath in primary skills are enough to overtake Hadlees batting.

Will be kept in the mental logs though.

#precedent set

 

[subshakerz]

It's Hadlee's batting plus having an ace at 3rd slip / 1st slip for Warne.

You have the greatest pace attack ever assembled (Marshall - Steyn - McGrath / Hadlee) with all three of them specializing in taking the ball away from the batsman and all accustomed to specialist cordons.

Smith in slip, hmm I remember him shelling some really important chances tho. He wasn't Mark Waugh or something.