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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

trundler

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Sangakkara was better than Boucher in every regard

Boucher a massively overrated cricketer. Decent bat at best, but wasn't even a particularly good keeper tbh
Boucher can't be overrated when no one thinks of him at all. When I think of SA keepers, Waite is foremost along with QdK then come Cameron and De Villiers who would've been greats over a full career (as WKBs). Hell, Percy Sherwell with his respectable-for-a-pre-War batsman average stands out with more personality than Boucher who was an ok batsman and an ok 'keeper. Boucher doesn't even get bonus points under the assumption that he must've been great if he played that long. The only thing I've heard about him since he retired was him being a dressing room racist.
 

Red_Ink_Squid

Global Moderator
i really hate the way people pick Sangakara as a wicket keeper.

Speaking of the ****, i was washing my hands in the sink the other day and his lookalike washes his hands in the one next to me and shook his hands dry flicking his hand water all over me and my face. While i thought WTF, the wanker washed them some more, just to be sure, and did it again. Seriously. Just an all-round unpleasant guy - even his clones.
Are you a @Himannv lookalike? Those guys do this to each other all the time.
 

Coronis

International Coach
First century of test cricket vs second century (tbc)

have only taken into account records pre/post March 1977 for those whose careers crossed that boundary

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Bradman*
Hammond
Sobers
Oldfield+
Davidson
Lindwall
O’Reilly
Barnes

Heresy to not have Bradman at 3, but I couldn’t resist having all 3 openers in there, that batting lineup is to die for. Keeper could really go to a few blokes there. Trueman and Miller unlucky not to make the side.

Gavaskar
Smith*
Lara
Tendulkar
Smith
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

First century has an edge in batting, second in bowling.
 

kyear2

International Coach
First century of test cricket vs second century (tbc)

have only taken into account records pre/post March 1977 for those whose careers crossed that boundary

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Bradman*
Hammond
Sobers
Oldfield+
Davidson
Lindwall
O’Reilly
Barnes

Heresy to not have Bradman at 3, but I couldn’t resist having all 3 openers in there, that batting lineup is to die for. Keeper could really go to a few blokes there. Trueman and Miller unlucky not to make the side.

Gavaskar
Smith*
Lara
Tendulkar
Smith
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

First century has an edge in batting, second in bowling.
And not by coincidence.
 

bagapath

International Captain
First century of test cricket vs second century (tbc)

have only taken into account records pre/post March 1977 for those whose careers crossed that boundary

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Bradman*
Hammond
Sobers
Oldfield+
Davidson
Lindwall
O’Reilly
Barnes

Heresy to not have Bradman at 3, but I couldn’t resist having all 3 openers in there, that batting lineup is to die for. Keeper could really go to a few blokes there. Trueman and Miller unlucky not to make the side.

Gavaskar
Smith*
Lara
Tendulkar
Smith
Kallis
Gilchrist+
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
McGrath

First century has an edge in batting, second in bowling.
From those you haven't selected...

First Century XI
(avoiding all those who played even one test after March 1977)

WG Grace
VT Trumper
G Headley
DCS Compton
ED Weekes
KR Miller
LG Ames +
R Benaud *
J Laker
FS Trueman
W Hall

Second Century XI
(avoiding all those who played even one test before March 1977)

V Sehwag
ML Hayden
RT Ponting
JH Kallis
AR Border
IT Botham
MS Dhoni + *
Wasim Akram
CEL Ambrose
DW Steyn
Muralitharan
 
Last edited:

ataraxia

International Coach
Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton
Bradman*
Hammond
Sobers
Oldfield+
Davidson
Lindwall
O’Reilly
Barnes

Heresy to not have Bradman at 3, but I couldn’t resist having all 3 openers in there, that batting lineup is to die for. Keeper could really go to a few blokes there. Trueman and Miller unlucky not to make the side.
Just bat Hobbs 4 tbh. He was in an era when attitudes re: where the best batters would bat were very different.
 

howitzer

State Captain
Just bat Hobbs 4 tbh. He was in an era when attitudes re: where the best batters would bat were very different.
Yet was virtually exclusively an opener. I'd argue that virtually exclusively batting in a certain position in a more laissez-faire era should make that player be more confined to the role. You could argue for a more modern player that they may have been batted elsewhere a lot more in the more laissez-faire era. That argument can't be made for Hobbs.
 

Coronis

International Coach
Just bat Hobbs 4 tbh. He was in an era when attitudes re: where the best batters would bat were very different.
Probably not the worst idea tbh. He was a notably more aggressive batsman (50 SR) than Sutcliffe (37.3) and Hutton (38.3), probably more adaptable based on the current state of the match.
 

kyear2

International Coach
Top 16 Bats
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs

Richards
Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Chappell

Kallis
Sangakkara
Headley
Sutcliffe



Top 14 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan

Ambrose
Imran
Donald
Lillee

Trueman
Garner
O'Reilly
Wasim



Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis

Jayawardene
Dravid



Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Gilchrist
Kallis
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil



Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Flemming

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI

Sir Leonard Hutton *
Sunil Gavaskar^
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Dale Steyn (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

Top 20 cricketers of All Time

Bradman
Sobers
Marshall
Hobbs
McGrath

Tendulkar
Hadlee
Richards
Imran
Gilchrist

Kallis
Warne
Lara
Muralitharan
Hammond

Ambrose
Steyn
Smith
Hutton
Gavaskar
 

kyear2

International Coach
The top 20 is probably a bit off and the only one I'm not happy with. Was supposed to be a top 15, but kept thinking go guys that should be there. O'Reilly and Headley also should be, but that would have stretched it even longer.

Actual team I would want to put on a park


Smith
Richards
Bradman
Richards
Sobers
Smith / Lara
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Steyn
 

Coronis

International Coach
Top 16 Bats
Bradman

Tendulkar
Sobers
Hobbs

Richards
Smith
Lara
Hutton

Gavaskar
Ponting
Hammond
Chappell

Kallis
Sangakkara
Headley
Sutcliffe



Top 14 bowlers
Marshall
McGrath
Hadlee

Steyn
Warne
Muralitharan

Ambrose
Imran
Donald
Lillee

Trueman
Garner
O'Reilly
Wasim



Top 12 Slip fielders
Hammond
Simpson
Sobers
Chappell
Taylor
Waugh
Ponting
Richardson
Hooper
Kallis

Jayawardene
Dravid



Top 10 all rounders
Sobers
Imran
Gilchrist
Kallis
Miller
Botham
Hadlee
Pollock
Jadeja
Kapil



Top 8 Captains
Benaud
Ranatunga
Taylor
Flemming

Worrell
Jardine
Lloyd
Imran

All Time XI

Sir Leonard Hutton *
Sunil Gavaskar^
Sir Donald Bradman
Sir. I. V. A. Richards^
Sachin Tendulkar
Sir Garfield Sobers^(5)
Adam Gilchrist +
Malcolm Marshall (1)
Shane Warne (4)
Dale Steyn (3)
Glenn McGrath (2)

Top 20 cricketers of All Time

Bradman
Sobers
Marshall
Hobbs
McGrath

Tendulkar
Hadlee
Richards
Imran
Gilchrist

Kallis
Warne
Lara
Muralitharan
Hammond

Ambrose
Steyn
Smith
Hutton
Gavaskar
I know your reasons but I still find it amusing you put Hobbs ahead of Hutton and Gavaskar as a batsman but don’t put him in your XI. Especially since Gavaskar and Hutton were both more defensive, you’d think you’d want someone like Hobbs who can attack more.

Also amusing to me that you have a top slip list but not a top keepers list.

Good stuff tho
 

kyear2

International Coach
I know your reasons but I still find it amusing you put Hobbs ahead of Hutton and Gavaskar as a batsman but don’t put him in your XI. Especially since Gavaskar and Hutton were both more defensive, you’d think you’d want someone like Hobbs who can attack more.

Also amusing to me that you have a top slip list but not a top keepers list.

Good stuff tho
I've said that I don't find the openers ideal a d in the subsequent post listed the openers I would ideally prefer.
I would also love Hobbs, but I find it hard to include players we haven't seen in any capacity to gauge how I would believe they would perform against "modern" bowlers. I know though that he was the best if his era and among the best if all time.

For keepers? Multiple reasons.

1. Not knowledgeable enough
2. The best ones were often not selected based on that skill alone so already skewed
3. Tallon, Gout, Taylor, Knott, Russell, Blackham, Cameron, Dujon, Evans, the differences / nuances are difficult to separate. Dujon was by far the best keeper I've ever seen to pace, but less so vs spin. Pace is more important now, but spin moreso in the past, how to balance.
4. To add to no. 2, even further back batting was prioritized over pure keeping, so the sample sizes of the very best keepers are somewhat reduced at best. The keeper selected for ATG teams wasn't a to 15 keeper, so that alone speaks volumes. Even Ames and Knott(?) was selected also because they could hold a bat.
 

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