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*Official* Australia tour of New Zealand Feb-Mar 2024

TheJediBrah

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Probably because he's basically an opener against any decent team as the openers never see off the new ball. I'd love to see the average point in each innings that Williamson comes in against each team. I'd be surprised if it's anything other than earlier against the better teams. Might have a look at it myself at some point. Compare that to when, on average, your Smiths, Roots and Kohlis get to the crease. Might be reasonably early for Root tbf, given the parade of mediocre openers England have had.
Nah not buying that at all

As to your question Smith at least I know tended to do a lot better when he did come in early rather than having to wait around. Pre-2021ish, make it 2/10 and you could usually put him down for a ton
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Nah not buying that at all

As to your question Smith at least I know tended to do a lot better when he did come in early rather than having to wait around. Pre-2021ish, make it 2/10 and you could usually put him down for a ton
Of course you’re not buying it at all. It’s clear from Smith’s much better returns as an opener that he’s much more successful when he faces the new ball.
 

Skyliner

International 12th Man
Probably because he's basically an opener against any decent team as the openers never see off the new ball. I'd love to see the average point in each innings that Williamson comes in against each team. I'd be surprised if it's anything other than earlier against the better teams. Might have a look at it myself at some point. Compare that to when, on average, your Smiths, Roots and Kohlis get to the crease. Might be reasonably early for Root tbf, given the parade of mediocre openers England have had.
You make a very good point: Kane is basically an opener against the best teams. This is where Latham’s lop-sided batting performances are hurting the team. By belting enormous scores against sub-continental sides at home he fills his boots with runs that could be scored by the middle order. And he pads his average in the process. But the openers job first and foremost is to take the shine off the new ball and see off the initial attack. But he’s not up to the task against those better sides.

Kane did have a decent average against Australia, but this test - including a farcical run-out - has pushed his average against them below 40 and into the zone where his critics can now say he’s a flop against the big 3. Next test maybe he makes a hundred and reverses the trend.
 

TheJediBrah

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Of course you’re not buying it at all. It’s clear from Smith’s much better returns as an opener that he’s much more successful when he faces the new ball.
Literally been 3 games. And anyway been just about as good as opener than he was at 4 for the last few months.

Anyway this isn't about Smith, stop deflecting. I'm not just trying to be a dick, flaming KW, I'm genuinely curious how he's escaped scrutiny and that some people were actually comparing him to Smith and Root for so long
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
Bull****. You know his recent record. This is stock in trade for you so pardon me if I don’t take your argument in good faith.

I mean, it’s hardly as if his recent track record has been stinking up the joint. All the NZ fans, including the hardcore Southee fans have been criticising him. Latham, Conway. Pretty much everyone other than perhaps Williamson, Mitchell, Henry and O’Rourke. Should we flagellate everyone who ****s the bed in one Test when the preceding record is like his? It’s not even as if he wasn’t being analysed against South Africa for not going on and making a big score in the first.
 

trundler

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So apparently KW averages mid 30s against Australia, England and India. Bloke is one of the biggest minnow bashers and HTBs in cricket but seems to have largely escaped scrutiny for it. Because he plays for NZ and not a higher profile country?
This summer pretty much decides where on the Walcott-Yousuf spectrum of HTB he ends up and at this point he's closer to the latter.
 

Moss

International Vice-Captain
So apparently KW averages mid 30s against Australia, England and India. Bloke is one of the biggest minnow bashers and HTBs in cricket but seems to have largely escaped scrutiny for it. Because he plays for NZ and not a higher profile country?
Will try to answer your specific question and not get into debates around why labels such as HTB are understandable, but seem a bit simplistic (my view anyway).

As to why he may have escaped scrutiny (and I don’t believe this is the case at all actually - everyone around me in India who cares is more than familiar): in the first half of his career, say till around 2017-18, NZ played tests more frequently abroad, enjoyed a pretty reasonable run and generally forged a reputation as a more competitive touring team than most. Williamson put in some really good performances here which were often, but not always, instrumental in NZ doing well in countries they were previously losing badly in. Examples:
Century on debut in Ahmedabad 2010, which was a huge achievement for a 20 year old, a 138 which helped win at the P’Sara test in 2012 (Ross Taylor was infamously dumped as captain after this), some excellent batting when NZ won 2-1 in the Windies (this was one of those series Windies actually played very well), the centuries at Gabba and WACA in 2015, and, probably his most underrated feat , a great record in the Pakistan’s fortress the UAE especially in the series decider in 2018. Also a century at Lord’s in 2015 which is always good for visibility. All this definitely left an impression on people who were used to the NZ of the late 2000s, and may have put lower scores in the shade.

Since then it’s been diminishing returns for sure, and some criticism is certainly deserved. But I will say that unlike the other three who generally come up in this conversation, playing 2 test series 5-6 years apart makes it a bit harder to bridge the gap. And the opportunities against countries outside the big three are even fewer - NZ haven’t toured the Windies since 2014, South Africa since 2016, Sri Lanka since 2012 and then 2019, Bangladesh since 2013 and then 2024 etc. Maybe you have to play a lot more for the scrutiny to keep up?
 
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Skyliner

International 12th Man
Joe Root averages 40.46 against Australia.
Virat Kohli averages 42.36 against England.
So they are on the cusp of dipping under 40 against a couple of key opponents.
In 7 tests vs Australia in Australia, Kane averages 42.84
 

Flem274*

123/5
So apparently KW averages mid 30s against Australia, England and India. Bloke is one of the biggest minnow bashers and HTBs in cricket but seems to have largely escaped scrutiny for it. Because he plays for NZ and not a higher profile country?
You know full well this gets brought up all the time, especially by Trundler who is going through his "I am the only one who sees the truth and I will post it as bluntly as possible because I am brutally honest" phase of posting, and has been thoroughly debunked by people who watched cricket since 2010 and not statsguru. However, you did get your desired reaction as a dessert to your test win today so well done champ.

I'm just logging your posting in the memory bank for next time an Australian loss winds you up.
 

trundler

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You know full well this gets brought up all the time, especially by Trundler who is going through his "I am the only one who sees the truth and I will post it as bluntly as possible because I am brutally honest" phase of posting, and has been thoroughly debunked by people who watched cricket since 2010 and not statsguru. However, you did get your desired reaction as a dessert to your test win today so well done champ.

I'm just logging your posting in the memory bank for next time an Australian loss winds you up.
Rent free
 

Flem274*

123/5
Joe Root averages 40.46 against Australia.
Virat Kohli averages 42.36 against England.
So they are on the cusp of dipping under 40 against a couple of key opponents.
In 7 tests vs Australia in Australia, Kane averages 42.84
I'm not sure Root has a ton in Aus or that Kohli has one outside the 4 in a row on the flat decks people deride Taylor for going huge on, but you don't see kiwis bringing this up ad nauseum because we'd cut our nuts off to steal either in their prime to add to the batting.

Will trade 2024 Southee for 2024 Kohli :ph34r:
 

trundler

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It's not rent free if you're showing up after every KW low score, you're just the equivalent of a God botherer door knocking when he sees the lights on.

"HELLO SIR, DO YOU HAVE A MOMENT TO SPEAK? LOVE YOUR GARDEN. HAVE YOU HEARD THE NEWS ABOUT KANE WILLIAMSON? JACQUES KALLIS IS NOT AN ALLROUNDER."
m8 I don't even half a post in the thread half the time you do your angsty rants about me
 

Sunil1z

International Regular
I'm not sure Root has a ton in Aus or that Kohli has one outside the 4 in a row on the flat decks people deride Taylor for going huge on, but you don't see kiwis bringing this up ad nauseum because we'd cut our nuts off to steal either in their prime to add to the batting.

Will trade 2024 Southee for 2024 Kohli :ph34r:
Kohli scored a ton at Perth in 2018 series . He also scored a ton in his first Test series in Aus in 2012. He was also looking good for Ton in D/N test at Adelaide (36 all out match ) in first innings before being run out on 75 iirc .That was the only Test he played in that series
 

Flem274*

123/5
Kohli scored a ton at Perth in 2018 series . He also scored a ton in his first Test series in Aus in 2012. He was also looking good for Ton in D/N test at Adelaide (36 all out match ) in first innings before being run out on 75 iirc .That was the only Test he played in that series
Ta, thanks for the reminder. Him and Rahane batting together and absolutely smoking the ****s is my lasting memory of Kohli in Aus. That was such a fun partnership.

Trade offer still stands. I think India needs a nice medium pacer to complement Thakur.
 

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