Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[OverratedSanity]

If he turns out to be something special, then yeah, it's elevated, greatly elevated. Would be akin to a young Lillee bowling to a an established Sobers in '71.

If not, then not so much for me. And it's not down playing the knock, again it was special, but the attack through the gaze of history.

Wtf? This is so dumb. You watched the match and know how well joseph bowled. Yet you'll judge that performance by what joseph becomes later on? This makes absolutely no sense

 

[OverratedSanity]

I, again, personally prefers not to look at bowling attacks over careers but how they bowled on a particular match when rating innings; and I thought WI bowled really well for the most part, especially Shamar Joseph.

Yessss. Posters on CW do this all the time where they evaluate the difficulty of facing attacks by their careers rather than how they actually bowled. For older matches I understand that mindset, but for games you've watched, surely the actual performance level of the bowler on the day/series is what you should keep in mind.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Wtf? This is so dumb. You watched the match and know how well joseph bowled. Yet you'll judge that performance by what joseph becomes later on? This makes absolutely no sense

Since Rabada has great career stats, I rate his performances on his last tour to Aus as ATG

 

[OverratedSanity]

Since Rabada has great career stats, I rate his performances on his last tour to Aus as ATG

And by the same logic career 28 average Mitchell Johnson in 2023/14 must have not been a big challenge to face.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

And by the same logic career 28 average Mitchell Johnson in 2023/14 must have not been a big challenge to face.

Stuart broad wasn’t that good in that 2011 series against India (since he averages 27) so I guess Dravids series wasn’t that impressive

 

[subshakerz]

Wtf? This is so dumb. You watched the match and know how well joseph bowled. Yet you'll judge that performance by what joseph becomes later on? This makes absolutely no sense

He is just being consistent if you think about it since we apply these standards for other games too based on the names on the sheet. If Joseph continues to be an ATG that innings will be seen as better than if he ends up ordinary.

 

[OverratedSanity]

He is just being consistent if you think about it since we apply these standards for other games too based on the names on the sheet. If Joseph continues to be an ATG that innings will be seen as better than if he ends up ordinary.

We do this for games from the 70s because most of us haven't watched those games in full so it's a little tough to get context of how well bowlers were actually bowling on any given day. But to actively ignore how well joseph bowled despite watching that game is ridiculous.

 

[subshakerz]

And by the same logic career 28 average Mitchell Johnson in 2023/14 must have not been a big challenge to face.

Johnson's bowling reputation is exactly why those who performed in 2013/14 against him are rated highly.

 

[subshakerz]

We do this for games from the 70s because most of us haven't watched those games in full so it's a little tough to get context of how well bowlers were actually bowling on any given day. But to actively ignore how well joseph bowled despite watching that game is ridiculous.

I don't think that is what he is saying. He is saying in the annals of cricket an innings will inevitably end up be rated higher based on the reputations of the bowlers faced. It is hard to deny that if Joseph ends up as an ATG, the Smith innings won't be seen better though we all acknowledge it is a top knock as it stands.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Yeah, but even before 2018, Smith played on some of the worst Post WWI pitches, in which even probably Viv didn't played; case in point, India 2017.

Only one. Ind 2017. And I quoted that

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Yeah, but even before 2018, Smith played on some of the worst Post WWI pitches, in which even probably Viv didn't played; case in point, India 2017.

I mean Viv would’ve played on the odd uncovered pitch in Eng

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Yessss. Posters on CW do this all the time where they evaluate the difficulty of facing attacks by their careers rather than how they actually bowled. For older matches I understand that mindset, but for games you've watched, surely the actual performance level of the bowler on the day/series is what you should keep in mind.

Fair point. Viv Richards had a much bigger challenge facing Narendra Hirwani in Ind(87/88) than Smith vs Broad and Anderson in Aus 2017.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

But again it’s not as if Smith has played great attacks more often and better than Viv.

 

[subshakerz]

But again it’s not as if Smith has played great attacks more often and better than Viv.

He hasn't. This is why I view his career with suspicion.

 

[capt_Luffy]

I mean Viv would’ve played on the odd uncovered pitch in Eng

Given everything, Smith atleast has played some top tier pace attacks in bouncy and swinging conditions; Viv haven't played many top tier spin attacks in turning conditions. The closest he has is an Indian series against the quartet in India; but again it was very high scoring, the pacers were more successful, and even more, despite averaging 50+; Viv only scored in one game, 192*; in the flatest of the pitches and in the absence of Chandrashekhar, the only bowler who when striking wasn't very pitch dependent. Case in point, not an attack on Viv, but the notion Viv exclusively played better attacks on worse pitches is not really true.

 

[subshakerz]

Given everything, Smith atleast has played some top tier pace attacks in bouncy and swinging conditions; Viv haven't played many top tier spin attacks in turning conditions. The closest he has is an Indian series against the quartet in India; but again it was very high scoring, the pacers were more successful, and even more, despite averaging 50+; Viv only scored in one game, 192*; in the flatest of the pitches and in the absence of Chandrashekhar, the only bowler who when striking wasn't very pitch dependent. Case in point, not an attack on Viv, but the notion Viv exclusively played better attacks on worse pitches is not really true.

Viv also scored against Qadir and Qasim in Pak in 1980. I don't think the issue is quality spin with Smith or Viv though.

It is quality pace with Smith which represents a small part of his career in terms of who he faced. Only one series vs a bonafide ATG pacer with a lot of downhill skiing frankly.

I know this won't bother some posters because of how highly they value the ability to stuff your pockets versus middling attacks.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Viv also scored against Qadir and Qasim in Pak in 1980. I don't think the issue is quality spin with Smith or Viv though.

It is quality pace with Smith which represents a small part of his career in terms of who he faced. Only one series vs a bonafide ATG pacer with a lot of downhill skiing frankly.

I know this won't bother some posters because of how highly they value the ability to stuff your pockets versus middling attacks.

And I know some posters will just look if an attack have an ATG and doesn't care who the others are and declare them superior..... As an attack, Viv seldom faced more than one ATG paired with a few ATVGs, like Smith have faced Anderson and Broad in England or Peak Bumrah and a blazing Shami in Australia. Viv in 1980 Pakistan dust roads against Qadir and Qasim isn't the same as Smith in India's some of the worst turners against Ashwin and Jadeja.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Yea one ATG bowler doesn’t make it a great attack. The other pacers in those attacks were averaging over 30

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And I know some posters will just look if an attack have an ATG and doesn't care who the others are and declare them superior..... As an attack, Viv seldom faced more than one ATG paired with a few ATVGs, like Smith have faced Anderson and Broad in England or Peak Bumrah and a blazing Shami in Australia. Viv in 1980 Pakistan dust roads against Qadir and Qasim isn't the same as Smith in India's some of the worst turners against Ashwin and Jadeja.

Smith has spaced brilliant spin no doubt. But Richards faced the Quartet at home(and some pitches like Sabina Park were a spinner’s paradise), and scored 500+ runs in 4 matches. Bedi and Chandrashekhar each took as many wickets as Holding that series

 

[subshakerz]

Yea one ATG bowler doesn’t make it a great attack. The other pacers in those attacks were averaging over 30

Several good bowlers also doesn't make it a great attack.