Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And I know some posters will just look if an attack have an ATG and doesn't care who the others are and declare them superior..... As an attack, Viv seldom faced more than one ATG paired with a few ATVGs, like Smith have faced Anderson and Broad in England or Peak Bumrah and a blazing Shami in Australia. Viv in 1980 Pakistan dust roads against Qadir and Qasim isn't the same as Smith in India's some of the worst turners against Ashwin and Jadeja.

Broad isn’t an ATG. Viv faced Imran, Wasim and Qadir in WI 1987. He faced Willis, Underwood, Snow in Eng 1976. Faced Lillee, Thomson in 1975, and them and Hogg in 1979. Faced the Indian quartet in 1975/76. Faced Imran and Qadir in 1980 Pak. Faced Botham and Willis in 1980. All attacks on tough pitches, unlike Smith facing Bumrah and Shami(that too not for all matches) in flat tracks in Aus. Smith has also seldom done well against such attacks.(2015 Eng, 2017 Ind, 2013 SA for example).

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Several good bowlers also doesn't make it a great attack.

I don’t think I ever said that.

 

[subshakerz]

I don’t think I ever said that.

Clear inference.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

And fun fact, one of the highest fourth innings chase in India, on a deteriorating Delhi track, where both teams had been bowled for under 150 in their first innings, Viv was the differentiating factor. The fact is Smith has a slightly higher ceiling against spin(given the 2017 series), but Viv dominated a similarly good attack on good(not as worse as 2017 pitches) and did well vs Qadir as well. The only time Smith dominated really great pace attacks is 2015 Eng and 2013 SA. For Viv, there is Aus 1979(Lillee+Thomson+Hogg), WI 1987(Imran+Wasim+Qadir), 1980 Eng(Willis+peak Botham). (Even if Smith played Bumrah and Shami on flatbeds(where he doesn’t have a good record anyways), he didn’t even have a dominating 2021 BGT series). So it’s not as if Smith has done well against great attacks more than Viv.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Smith has spaced brilliant spin no doubt. But Richards faced the Quartet at home(and some pitches like Sabina Park were a spinner’s paradise), and scored 500+ runs in 4 matches. Bedi and Chandrashekhar each took as many wickets as Holding that series

353 runs in 5 matches, 192 came in a single innings in a dead pitch

 

[subshakerz]

Broad isn’t an ATG. Viv faced Imran, Wasim and Qadir in WI 1987. He faced Willis, Underwood, Snow in Eng 1976. Faced Lillee, Thomson in 1975, and them and Hogg in 1979. Faced the Indian quartet in 1975/76. Faced Imran and Qadir in 1980 Pak. Faced Botham and Willis in 1980. All attacks on tough pitches, unlike Smith facing Bumrah and Shami(that too not for all matches) in flat tracks in Aus. Smith has also seldom done well against such attacks.(2015 Eng, 2017 Ind, 2013 SA for example).

Bumrah was injured when Smith faced him in 2021. Smith also failed in SA in 2018. Even in 2013, Smiths ton came with SA's bowling putting in a shockingly bad Day 1 bowling performance post lunch. Credit to him but I don't take it as strong evidence he would dominate other ATGs.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

353 runs in 5 matches, 192 came in a single innings in a dead pitch

No. In 1976 Ind tour of WI, 556 runs in 4 matches

 

[subshakerz]

353 runs in 5 matches, 192 came in a single innings in a dead pitch

Viv did well against spin he faced but I would take Smith over him against spin.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

353 runs in 5 matches, 192 came in a single innings in a dead pitch

 

[capt_Luffy]

And fun fact, one of the highest fourth innings chase in India, on a deteriorating Delhi track, where both teams had been bowled for under 150 in their first innings, Viv was the differentiating factor. The fact is Smith has a slightly higher ceiling against spin(given the 2017 series), but Viv dominated a similarly good attack on good(not as worse as 2017 pitches) and did well vs Qadir as well. The only time Smith dominated really great pace attacks is 2015 Eng and 2013 SA. For Viv, there is Aus 1979(Lillee+Thomson+Hogg), WI 1987(Imran+Wasim+Qadir), 1980 Eng(Willis+peak Botham). (Even if Smith played Bumrah and Shami on flatbeds(where he doesn’t have a good record anyways), he didn’t even have a dominating 2021 BGT series). So it’s not as if Smith has done well against great attacks more than Viv.

By 1987, Imran was at his last leg as a bowler and way past his prime, same for Qadir and Wasim wasn't that good yet. I never said Viv played particularly worse bowling, just that Smith also haven't necessarily done so.

 

[capt_Luffy]

View attachment 39286

That was an away series, though the quartet did good; I doubt you could really compare that with Smith in 2017.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

By 1987, Imran was at his last leg as a bowler and way past his prime, same for Qadir and Wasim wasn't that good yet. I never said Viv played particularly worse bowling, just that Smith also haven't necessarily done so.

Dude, Imran had one of his best ever series as a bowler vs Wi( 22 wickets in 3 matches). Wasim was young, but fast and very dangerous(did well at home vs WI, a six fer I think), and ATVG, if not ATG. Qadir was similarly brilliant but Viv played him very well, at Sabina Park, using his feet very well

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

That was an away series, though the quartet did good; I doubt you could really compare that with Smith in 2017.

The quartet overall is as good as Ashwin/Jadeja, tho Smith’s series was better cause of the worse pitches. Plus WI had good tracks for spinners, Chandra and Bedi were the best bowlers in that series. And Viv scored massively. So it’s not as if Smith’s series is leagues ahead, ahead tho

 

[capt_Luffy]

Dude, Imran had one of his best ever series at a bowler vs Wi( 22 wickets in 3 matches). Wasim was young, but fast and very dangerous(did well at home vs WI, a six fer I think), and ATVG, if not ATG. Qadir was similarly brilliant but Viv played him very well, at Sabina Park, using his feet very well

Overall I would say Wasim was good back then, definitely not something totally outstanding and Qadir averaged close to 40. Though I would say I was wrong, Imran indeed played exceptional and he wasn't on his last leg. It was a good series, if not a great one; for Viv. But I still think ATG or not, an attack of Broad, Anderson and Archer in England is comparable to atleast any attack Viv ever faced.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The quartet overall is as good as Ashwin/Jadeja, tho Smith’s series was better cause of the worse pitches. Plus WI had good tracks for spinners, Chandra and Bedi were the best bowlers in that series. And Viv scored massively. So it’s not as if Smith’s series is leagues ahead, ahead tho

Smith series is actually leagues ahead imo. He played them in their home, in some of the worst turners; where Ashwin and Jadeja are probably better than bowler not named Murali. I personally think the quartet doesn't have the results to be compared with Ashwin and Jadeja at home especially, though again, in that series they were no doubt very effective. It was a great series arguably, but Smith's one is his best, and the best by any batsman ever in India.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Overall I would say Wasim was good back then, definitely not something totally outstanding and Qadir averaged close to 40. Though I would say I was wrong, Imran indeed played exceptional and he wasn't on his last leg. It was a good series, if not a great one; for Viv. But I still think ATG or not, an attack of Broad, Anderson and Archer in England is comparable to atleast any attack Viv ever faced.

Broad, Anderson and Archer never played together(only one match at max). And Lillee, Thomson and Hogg(one of the best bowlers in the world then) is far ahead of this. Viv dominated them, while sick on that tour. And Wasim was one of the best young bowlers in the world then. Qadir averaged 40 cause he was played well, but at Sabina Park he could’ve been a real challenge.

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Smith series is actually leagues ahead imo. He played them in their home, in some of the worst turners; where Ashwin and Jadeja are probably better than bowler not named Murali. I personally think the quartet doesn't have the results to be compared with Ashwin and Jadeja at home especially, though again, in that series they were no doubt very effective. It was a great series arguably, but Smith's one is his best, and the best by any batsman ever in India.

Not leagues ahead. The quartet played this series in WI, where Bedi and Chandra outperformed Holding(both took 20 odd wickets in 4 games). and there were turning tracks(not as bad as 2017 tho). And Viv scored 556 runs in 4 matches. Cause of the quality of pitches, Smith’s series is ahead, but not by leagues.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Don’t mind if someone wants to say Viv’s era was slightly harder but to say that the eras are not close in difficulty is pretty silly. There’s like 2 guys averaging 50+ in this era (Marnus doesn’t count).

 

[HouHsiaoHsien]

Don’t mind if someone wants to say Viv’s era was slightly harder but to say that the eras are not close in difficulty is pretty silly. There’s like 2 guys averaging 50+ in this era (Marnus doesn’t count).

2018 onwards is very tough agreed. But Smith cashed in a lot on pre 2018 era

 

[capt_Luffy]

Not leagues ahead. The quartet played this series in WI, where Bedi and Chandra outperformed Holding(both took 20 odd wickets in 4 games). and there were turning tracks(not as bad as 2017 tho). And Viv scored 556 runs in 4 matches. Cause of the quality of pitches, Smith’s series is ahead, but not by leagues.

Gavaskar, Viswanath, Amarnath also scored decent runs against better bowlers, and Lloyd and Kalicharan weren't shabby at all. No one from Australia averaged 30+ from Australia except Smith. Imo, the pitches just aren't comparable