Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[subshakerz]

Ok let's go :

70s/80s

Australia: Lilllee, Tommo, Walker, Gilmour, Pascoe, Alderman , McDermott, Mallet

WI: Roberts, Croft, Holding, Garner, Walsh, Marshall

Pak: Imran, Wasim , Qasim

NZ: Hadlee

Eng: Willis, Botham, Hendricks, Underwood

Ind: Dev (Prasana, Bedi, Chandra)

Now:

WI: ???

SL: ???

Rsa: Rabada, Steyn, Philander, Morkel

Eng: Broad, Anderson

Ind: Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Jadeja, Ashwin

Australia: Haze, Starc, Cummins, Lyons

Nz: Wagner, Boult, Jamieson, Southee

Pak: Afridi

Not much of a difference imo. The bolded are atgs and bowlers we rank in the top ten. Smith probably played better attacks but at the other end, Viv never really faced any completely dire attacks either.

'Not much of a difference' when you point out four top tier ATG pacers that Viv faced in multiple series vs one who Smith faced in one series. Which is my point, Viv was more tested, especially if we include WSC.

 

[capt_Luffy]

'Not much of a difference' when you point out four top tier ATG pacers that Viv faced in multiple series vs one who Smith faced in one series. Which is my point, Viv was more tested, especially if we include WSC.

Viv definitely faced better bowlers in WSC, but respectfully, facing a line-up with one bowler in consideration for GOAT status and 3 who shouldn't probably play cricket is not tougher than playing an attack with 3-4 Really good, borderline ATVG bowlers (like New Zealand, back then and now).

 

[peterhrt]

I remember the stat of "Steve Smith average vs 90 mph+ deliveries" got bandied around in the latter stages of the 2019 Ashes, after his duel with Archer. At the time, his average was the highest (or maybe close to it?) of anyone they had data on, and higher than his overall career average.

Definitely was a small sample size though, and obviously 4+ years ago now. Would be surprising though if his average vs express pace was so high back then and fallen so much. Have there been particular bowlers in the past few years who have troubled him that much?

There doesn't appear to be enough data in the public domain to draw firm conclusions. The pitch would also need to be taken into account. For example, during the first India v England Test, Mark Wood banged one in at 147 kph that reached the keeper at ankle height.

Since the 2019 Ashes, Steve Smith averages 45 in Tests. He has been dismissed 39 times by seamers and 16 times by spinners. The only spinners to get him out more than once are Ashwin (5) and Jadeja (4). The following ten quicker bowlers have done so:

4 - Wagner (in 5 innings), Wood
3 - Broad
2 - Afridi, Anderson, Khurram Shazad, Nortje, Robinson, Tongue, Woakes

 

[capt_Luffy]

There doesn't appear to be enough data in the public domain to draw firm conclusions. The pitch would also need to be taken into account. For example, during the first India v England Test, Mark Wood banged one in at 147 kph that reached the keeper at ankle height.

Since the 2019 Ashes, Steve Smith averages 45 in Tests. He has been dismissed 39 times by seamers and 16 times by spinners. The only spinners to get him out more than once are Ashwin (5) and Jadeja (4). The following ten quicker bowlers have done so:

4 - Wagner (in 5 innings), Wood
3 - Broad
2 - Afridi, Anderson, Khurram Shazad, Nortje, Robinson, Tongue, Woakes

I got the 2019 stats; until when, for 140+ kph deliveries, the batting averages were (minimum 3 dismissals):

Steve Smith: 98
Babar Azam: 82
Rishabh Pant: 60
Virat Kohli: 59

 

[kyear2]

'Not much of a difference' when you point out four top tier ATG pacers that Viv faced in multiple series vs one who Smith faced in one series. Which is my point, Viv was more tested, especially if we include WSC.

How is this not obvious.

 

[Slifer]

Viv definitely faced better bowlers in WSC, but respectfully, facing a line-up with one bowler in consideration for GOAT status and 3 who shouldn't probably play cricket is not tougher than playing an attack with 3-4 Really good, borderline ATVG bowlers (like New Zealand, back then and now).

Can I ask what attack you are referring to? I assume NZ. In which case Chatfield was a decent foil. Not in the class of a Shami or a Morkel but certainly there abouts with several of the bowlers Smith faced from lesser attacks from SL, WI etc. We can say Smith faced better bowling but at the other end of the spectrum, Viv never really faced any attacks as dire as current WI, SL, and Bang.

 

[kyear2]

I assume that because people don't immediately recognize the names that they assume that the attacks weren't as good. Look at the English attack that @Slifer referenced.

And again, Viv faced zero minnows

 

[Archer6K]

On commentary last year it was claimed that against bowling of 140 kph and above, Steve Smith's career average is in the early thirties. No sample size was given.

Simon Doull had previously applied the same metric to Ross Taylor whose average was in the twenties.

 

[subshakerz]

Viv definitely faced better bowlers in WSC, but respectfully, facing a line-up with one bowler in consideration for GOAT status and 3 who shouldn't probably play cricket is not tougher than playing an attack with 3-4 Really good, borderline ATVG bowlers (like New Zealand, back then and now).

Disagree here. Hadlee himself was enough to keep NZ unbeaten at home in the entire eighties.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Disagree here. Hadlee himself was enough to keep NZ unbeaten at home in the entire eighties.

So you believe he was single handedly as good as Boult, Wagner, Southee and Jamieson combined? This NZ is even more unbeatable at home, and I think as a unit definitely ahead both at home and away.

 

[sledger]

The thread being premised on the notion of Lara not being a top tier batter is excellent trolling.

 

[honestbharani]

The thread being premised on the notion of Lara not being a top tier batter is excellent trolling.

Not excellent tbh.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Can I ask what attack you are referring to? I assume NZ. In which case Chatfield was a decent foil. Not in the class of a Shami or a Morkel but certainly there abouts with several of the bowlers Smith faced from lesser attacks from SL, WI etc. We can say Smith faced better bowling but at the other end of the spectrum, Viv never really faced any attacks as dire as current WI, SL, and Bang.

I didn't meant Smith haven't faced worse attacks, or even that Chatfield was a bad bowler (I definitely think he was a good foil) just that NZ attack now is better than back then..... As for Smith, he recently played one of the best innings against WI in this millenium and he never truly inflated his numbers by cashing on minnows of Bangladesh and Sri Lanka; and actually had some hard fought runs vs WI.

 

[subshakerz]

So you believe he was single handedly as good as Boult, Wagner, Southee and Jamieson combined? This NZ is even more unbeatable at home, and I think as a unit definitely ahead both at home and away.

How often has that quartet played together the last decade? It's usually two/three of those four.

Only Jamieson is worldclass level of those four and he is still early career. I would prefer Hadlee, Chatfield, Cairns over Boult, Wagner and Southee, since the former has a bonafide ATG with decent support versus three good bowlers who won't deliver the goods against stronger batting lineups.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How often has that quartet played together the last decade? It's usually two of those four.

Only Jamieson is worldclass level of those four and he is still early career. I would prefer Hadlee, Chatfield, Cairns over Boult, Wagner and Southee, since the former has a bonafide ATG with decent support versus three good bowlers.

Hadlee, Chatfield and Cairns have played even less together; and Boult, Southee and Wagner I believe plays decent number of matches together...... Also, I don't think you could really say Jamieson is better than Boult, Wagner or Southee right now? Atleast I personally won't.

 

[subshakerz]

Hadlee, Chatfield and Cairns have played even less together; and Boult, Southee and Wagner I believe plays decent number of matches together...... Also, I don't think you could really say Jamieson is better than Boult, Wagner or Southee right now? Atleast I personally won't.

The point still stands. You put Hadlee with either Chatfield, Cairns and someone else and he is going to deliver the goods more regularly than the modern counterparts of Boult, Southee and Wagner. Again, look at NZ's record in the 80s, they were behind WI and Pak as a top team in the world overall that decade.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The point still stands. You put Hadlee with either Chatfield, Cairns and someone else and he is going to deliver the goods more regularly than the modern counterparts of Boult, Southee and Wagner. Again, look at NZ's record in the 80s, they were behind WI and Pak as a top team in the world overall that decade.

I don't think you should really go into comparing the 2 NZ teams; that won't be fair to that one...... Among the 86 matches Hadlee played, he won only 22 and lost 28...... There's only so much you could do alone. And as I said, that attack had Hadlee this one's definitely more balanced.

 

[subshakerz]

I don't think you should really go into comparing the 2 NZ teams; that won't be fair to that one...... And as I said, that attack had Hadlee this one's definitely more balanced.

Balanced doesn't mean more penetrative. ATG is a lethal weapon.

 

[Slifer]

I didn't meant Smith haven't faced worse attacks, or even that Chatfield was a bad bowler (I definitely think he was a good foil) just that NZ attack now is better than back then..... As for Smith, he recently played one of the best innings against WI in this millenium and he never truly inflated his numbers by cashing on minnows of Bangladesh and Sri Lanka; and actually had some hard fought runs vs WI.

Yeah unfortunately, the WI attacks he faced before especially in Australia were complete garbage.

 

[capt_Luffy]

Yeah unfortunately, the WI attacks he faced before especially in Australia were complete garbage.

The WI attack he faced in WI I would say is decent with Roach, Holder and Alzarri Joseph all being really good in WI. And you have to say, his last innings against them in Australia is probably the best innings against WI in the last 30 years.....