Richards, Smith, Lara, Hammond

[PlayerComparisons]

The numbers don’t support the claim that Viv played in a much harder era. It’s just nostalgia. This era is just as hard.

Ponting is a better example of someone whose stats are inflated from playing in a really easy era.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't think you could really argue that India in 2017 and England in 2019 were better bowling units and bigger challenges than whatever New Zealand or Pakistan ever threw at Viv; Hadlee and Imran or not. They were greats, but as with SL with Murali, there's only so much a single player can do; especially Hadlee, Imran had decent support. This is not to criticize Viv, but Smith played better attacks more often. He also faced Steyn I believe.

It's a bit different with Murali because of the sheer volume of overs he could bowl that he by himself made that SL attack good (even ignoring vaas who was good) in a way a single fast bowler can't imo.

 

[capt_Luffy]

The numbers don’t support the claim that Viv played in a much harder era. It’s just nostalgia. This era is just as hard.

Ponting is a better example of someone whose stats are inflated from playing in a really easy era.

Especially considering the best bowling attack ever assembled belonged to his team....

 

[capt_Luffy]

It's a bit different with Murali because of the sheer volume of overs he could bowl that he by himself made that SL attack good (even ignoring vaas who was good) in a way a single fast bowler can't imo.

Fair. And I would actually give Hadlee credit for that, he actually made the Kiwi attack decent with his long spells; but I still think that's the most they can do. Make those attacks decent, and atmost good at home conditions. Which again, Viv didn't really did well in New Zealand.

 

[peterhrt]

Smith is elite against spin, talking pace. Compared to other greats, he faced less really top ones.

For him it is basically SA who have that high class pace attack and his record is somewhat mixed against them.

On commentary last year it was claimed that against bowling of 140 kph and above, Steve Smith's career average is in the early thirties. No sample size was given.

Simon Doull had previously applied the same metric to Ross Taylor whose average was in the twenties.

 

[capt_Luffy]

On commentary last year it was claimed that against bowling of 140 kph and above, Steve Smith's career average is in the early thirties. No sample size was given.

Simon Doull had previously applied the same metric to Ross Taylor whose average was in the twenties.

This doesn't sound really like anything without a sample size....

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

On commentary last year it was claimed that against bowling of 140 kph and above, Steve Smith's career average is in the early thirties. No sample size was given.

Simon Doull had previously applied the same metric to Ross Taylor whose average was in the twenties.

I remember the stat of "Steve Smith average vs 90 mph+ deliveries" got bandied around in the latter stages of the 2019 Ashes, after his duel with Archer. At the time, his average was the highest (or maybe close to it?) of anyone they had data on, and higher than his overall career average.

Definitely was a small sample size though, and obviously 4+ years ago now. Would be surprising though if his average vs express pace was so high back then and fallen so much. Have there been particular bowlers in the past few years who have troubled him that much?

 

[subshakerz]

On commentary last year it was claimed that against bowling of 140 kph and above, Steve Smith's career average is in the early thirties. No sample size was given.

Simon Doull had previously applied the same metric to Ross Taylor whose average was in the twenties.

Difference between quality pace and high pace.

 

[kyear2]

The numbers don’t support the claim that Viv played in a much harder era. It’s just nostalgia. This era is just as hard.

Ponting is a better example of someone whose stats are inflated from playing in a really easy era.

This is just ridiculous tbh.

New Zealand was actually a tough out at home, so was Pakistan if not more so, and India was no walk over. The only era that had better bowlers was the 90's.

 

[capt_Luffy]

This is just ridiculous tbh.

New Zealand was actually a tough out at home, so was Pakistan if not more so, and India was no walk over. The only era that had better bowlers was the 90's.

New Zealand (even without Hadlee) and India both have much better bowling line-ups now; and Australia and England have comparable if not outright better, and you could add SA as one more nation with currently a stronger bowling line-up. The only team back then which Richards faced with an outright better bowling line-up than now is Pakistan; and that too was carried by Imran and somewhat Qadir (who was quite inconsistent). Again, this is not a dig on Viv, but the attack that tips the scale in 70s favour is of WI.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Which high quality seamers did Pak and NZ have other than Imran and Hadlee?

 

[capt_Luffy]

Which high quality seamers did Pak and NZ have other than Imran and Hadlee?

Tbf they did had two decent support seamers in Sarfaraz Nawaz and Ewan Chatfield..... But yeah, I would still be plenty confident in ranking the current NZ pace battery superior to NZ back then.

 

[OverratedSanity]

This is just ridiculous tbh.

New Zealand was actually a tough out at home, so was Pakistan if not more so, and India was no walk over. The only era that had better bowlers was the 90's.

WI had a conveyor belt of great pacers that Viv never had to face. Outside of WI, don't think the quality of attacks was as good as it is in this era.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Tbf they did had two decent support seamers in Sarfaraz Nawaz and Ewan Chatfield..... But yeah, I would still be plenty confident in ranking the current NZ pace battery superior to NZ back then.

It’s like Bumrah + Mukesh Kumar

 

[Coronis]

This is just a random meaningless statsguru thing but whatever.

West Indies average player in Viv’s matches: 35.56 vs Viv: 50.23

Australia average player in Smith’s matches: 36.35 vs Smith: 58.03

 

[capt_Luffy]

It’s like Bumrah + Mukesh Kumar

Nah, both Chatfield and Nawaz were very decent bowlers; you can't say that if you don't think Bumrah is atleast 10 tiers below Hadlee and Imran. I think Bumrah+Siraj is closer.....

 

[Slifer]

Which high quality seamers did Pak and NZ have other than Imran and Hadlee?

Respectfully, Viv faced Imran and Wasim in both '86 away and '88 at home. Away he failed but at home he averaged nearly 70. Also, of note is the series in 1980 he topped the batting average on either team batting away and scoring runs vs Imran, Qadir and the very underrrated Iqbal Qasim.

Against Australia in 76 he 'only' averaged 39 vs peak Lillee and Tommo but no modern batsman would've done better. For goodness sake Lillee was sometimes bowling 8 bouncers an over. And that's not even mentioning other head hunters like Gilmour and Walker. That series was challenging not just because of quality of the bowlers but simple self preservation.

Of the top ten bowlers we here rank, 4 : Lillee, Imran, Hadlee, and Wasim all played vs Viv. And Viv at least once made runs vs each and everyone of them.

I rate Smith slightly above Viv because he's made runs more consistently and has made runs vs quality attacks. The best attack he's faced RSA: with Philander, Morkel, and Steyn or India: Ashwin and Bumrah he has had mixed results. Are they better than anything Viv faced? Maybe, I'm honestly not sure. But they sure as hell weren't more challenging than facing Lillee, Tommo and Walker in 8 ball overs, with unlimited bouncers and minimal protection. And with men literally trying to take your head off and the crowd egging them on...

 

[subshakerz]

Which high quality seamers did Pak and NZ have other than Imran and Hadlee?

You mean besides the top tier ATGs who had insane peaks at that time?

 

[Slifer]

WI had a conveyor belt of great pacers that Viv never had to face. Outside of WI, don't think the quality of attacks was as good as it is in this era.

Ok let's go :

70s/80s

Australia: Lilllee, Tommo, Walker, Gilmour, Pascoe, Alderman , McDermott, Mallet

WI: Roberts, Croft, Holding, Garner, Walsh, Marshall

Pak: Imran, Wasim , Qasim

NZ: Hadlee

Eng: Willis, Botham, Hendricks, Underwood

Ind: Dev (Prasana, Bedi, Chandra)

Now:

WI: ???

SL: ???

Rsa: Rabada, Steyn, Philander, Morkel

Eng: Broad, Anderson

Ind: Bumrah, Shami, Siraj, Jadeja, Ashwin

Australia: Haze, Starc, Cummins, Lyons

Nz: Wagner, Boult, Jamieson, Southee

Pak: Afridi

Not much of a difference imo. The bolded are atgs and bowlers we rank in the top ten. Smith probably played better attacks but at the other end, Viv never really faced any completely dire attacks either.

 

[subshakerz]

Respectfully, Viv faced Imran and Wasim in both '86 away and '88 at home. Away he failed but at home he averaged nearly 70. Also, of note is the series in 1980 he topped the batting average on either team batting away and scoring runs vs Imran, Qadir and the very underrrated Iqbal Qasim.

Against Australia in 76 he 'only' averaged 39 vs peak Lillee and Tommo but no modern batsman would've done better. For goodness sake Lillee was sometimes bowling 8 bouncers an over. And that's not even mentioning other head hunters like Gilmour and Walker. That series was challenging not just because of quality of the bowlers but simple self preservation.

Of the top ten bowlers we here rank, 4 : Lillee, Imran, Hadlee, and Wasim all played vs Viv. And Viv at least once made runs vs each and everyone of them.

Also in 79, he averaged 96 against Lillee.

I rate Smith slightly above Viv because he's made runs more consistently and has made runs vs quality attacks. The best attack he's faced RSA: with Philander, Morkel, and Steyn or India: Ashwin and Bumrah he has had mixed results. Are they better than anything Viv faced? Maybe, I'm honestly not sure. But they sure as hell weren't more challenging than facing Lillee, Tommo and Walker in 8 ball overs, with unlimited bouncers and minimal protection. And with men literally trying to take your head off and the crowd egging them on...

Smith did well in SA in 2013/4 but failed in 2018. Against India, you mentioned, also mixed results. Aside from that, not much top tier quality.