Ravindra Jadeja vs Matthew Hayden

[OverratedSanity]

Still no, because he has a conspicuous lack of impact away. If he plays until 100, needs at least 1-2 more impact series in SENA. As it is, he has played only 21 tests out of 69 in SENA.

He is one of the best home players of all-time, but the fact that he is selected so much in his preferred conditions has obscured his record and made him seem better than he really is.

The difference I have between Jadeja defenders and others is that I view his drop down in quality as an ATG-level home player to a support player in SENA far more harshly than they do.

Yes, Jadeja's away record is nowhere near as good as well known green track master Matthew Hayden lmao.

I'm not having this. If Jadeja's a subcontinent bully, Hayden was a notorious flat track bully himself. Everyone who watched him play knew this. The vast majority of his runs came on roads, he was a very mediocre batsman when the ball moved an inch off the straight.

You can argue he was slightly more useful with the bat in foreign conditions than Jadeja is with the ball, but Jadeja's overseas batting tilts this. The guy has scored important runs away from home virtually every time he's got the chance in the last few years. Hayden is maybe a bit better at his specialist skill, overall as a cricketer, Jadeja walks this.

 

[subshakerz]

Yes, Jadeja's away record is nowhere near as good as well known green track master Matthew Hayden lmao.

I'm not having this. If Jadeja's a subcontinent bully, Hayden was a notorious flat track bully himself. Everyone who watched him play knew this. The vast majority of his runs came on roads, he was a very mediocre batsman when the ball moved an inch off the straight.

You can argue he was slightly more useful with the bat in foreign conditions than Jadeja is with the ball, but Jadeja's overseas batting tilts this. The guy has scored important runs away from home virtually every time he's got the chance in the last few years. Hayden is maybe a bit better at his specialist skill, overall as a cricketer, Jadeja walks this.

I'm sorry, but you are vastly exaggerating the impact of Jadeja away from home compared to Hayden overseas. He has hardly played much anywhere except for England and WI for one. Second you are making the mistake of adding support performances up to assume more impact than doing well in a key specialist role as an opener. Sorry, but average 20 odd with the bat and taking 2 wickets a test may look on stats as the same impact as an opener averaging 40s/50s but it aint.

No doubt Hayden suffered on swinging tracks in Eng and NZ, but outside that, but he was terrific in the SC and as was pointed out to me, also had impact in the 2000s in SA in a couple of series. He played nearly twice as many games away from home as Jadeja too.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I'm sorry, but you are vastly exaggerating the impact of Jadeja away from home compared to Hayden overseas. He has hardly played much anywhere except for England and WI for one. Second you are making the mistake of adding support performances up to assume more impact than doing well in a key specialist role as an opener. Sorry, but average 20 odd with the bat and taking 2 wickets a test may look on stats as the same impact as an opener averaging 40s/50s but it aint.

No doubt Hayden suffered on swinging tracks in Eng and NZ, but outside that, but he was terrific in the SC and as was pointed out to me, also had impact in the 2000s in SA in a couple of series. He played nearly twice as many games away from home as Jadeja too.

You rate Hayden as a better batsman than Root right?

 

[kyear2]

In the West Indies vs Australia tour thread, there was a somewhat extended conversation with regards to just how difficult the gully position is to field in.

There always discussions with regards to the openers tax, and just how difficult it is to open in test cricket. Having an aggressive one who averaged over 50, is priceless.

He set the tempo at the top for the all conquering Aussie juggernaut, he was also one of the best gully fielders I've ever seen and an excellent and more deserving option for the first slip position over Warne and excellent at slip to him as well.

Opener tax, aggression, brilliant hands
Win

 

[capt_Luffy]

In the West Indies vs Australia tour thread, there was a somewhat extended conversation with regards to just how difficult the gully position is to field in.

There always discussions with regards to the openers tax, and just how difficult it is to open in test cricket. Having an aggressive one who averaged over 50, is priceless.

He set the tempo at the top for the all conquering Aussie juggernaut, he was also one of the best gully fielders I've ever seen and an excellent and more deserving option for the first slip position over Warne and excellent at slip to him as well.

Opener tax, aggression, brilliant hands
Win

Jadeja himself is a brilliant set of hands, giving Hayden the victory over him showcasing fielding is not really.....
Also, no matter the opening tax, Hayden was simply bad in England, South Africa and New Zealand. Away from home, the only place he really had any major impact is in the SC. Only place Jadeja haven't performed really well with the ball is in England, and there too, he was a good support bowler and averages almost 30 with the bat (more than Hayden). Infact, he averages 30+ everywhere he played but SA, where he played only 2 games, including the recent one on where SA scored 55 in the 1st innings and India lost thier last 6 without any runs; including 40+ in Australia. With the ball, Jadeja has the same record as Jim Laker in Australia (15 wickets, 4 games, 21 average). He didn't bowled in the second Test in SA, but in the first took 6 wickets, and has really good record in SL and WI as well. He only doesn't have a good bowling record in WI.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Jadeja himself is a brilliant set of hands, giving Hayden the victory over him showcasing fielding is not really.....
Also, no matter the opening tax, Hayden was simply bad in England, South Africa and New Zealand. Away from home, the only place he really had any major impact is in the SC. Only place Jadeja haven't performed really well with the ball is in England, and there too, he was a good support bowler and averages almost 30 with the bat (more than Hayden). Infact, he averages 30+ everywhere he played but SA, where he played only 2 games, including the recent one on where SA scored 55 in the 1st innings and India lost thier last 6 without any runs; including 40+ in Australia. With the ball, Jadeja has the same record as Jim Laker in Australia (15 wickets, 4 games, 21 average). He didn't bowled in the second Test in SA, but in the first took 6 wickets, and has really good record in SL and WI as well. He only doesn't have a good bowling record in WI.

The only thing Hayden has over jadeja atm is just longevity

 

[subshakerz]

Jadeja himself is a brilliant set of hands, giving Hayden the victory over him showcasing fielding is not really.....
Also, no matter the opening tax, Hayden was simply bad in England, South Africa and New Zealand. Away from home, the only place he really had any major impact is in the SC. Only place Jadeja haven't performed really well with the ball is in England, and there too, he was a good support bowler and averages almost 30 with the bat (more than Hayden). Infact, he averages 30+ everywhere he played but SA, where he played only 2 games, including the recent one on where SA scored 55 in the 1st innings and India lost thier last 6 without any runs; including 40+ in Australia. With the ball, Jadeja has the same record as Jim Laker in Australia (15 wickets, 4 games, 21 average). He didn't bowled in the second Test in SA, but in the first took 6 wickets, and has really good record in SL and WI as well. He only doesn't have a good bowling record in WI.

Hayden wasnt outright bad in SA, I am forced to admit. He had two impactful series in the 2000s.

And Jadeja failing in England is the only decent country where he has extensively played. He averages less with the bat than Hayden in England. But the main issue is that he has 28 tests overall overseas and a lot of the stats you show from him are misleading to his actual impact overall.

 

[Victor Ian]

I was close to voting Jadeja, but Hayden gets bonus credit for being an opener.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Hayden wasnt outright bad in SA, I am forced to admit. He had two impactful series in the 2000s.

And Jadeja failing in England is the only decent country where he has extensively played. He averages less with the bat than Hayden in England. But the main issue is that he has 28 tests overall overseas and a lot of the stats you show from him are misleading to his actual impact overall.

Hayden's one hundred in England was a dodgy one where it could be argued contributed to Australia losing the Ashes. Jadejas hundred in England was a genuinely great knock.

 

[subshakerz]

Hayden's one hundred in England was a dodgy one where it could be argued contributed to Australia losing the Ashes. Jadejas hundred in England was a genuinely great knock.

Sure if the question is just England, then I would put Jadeja ahead. But it's not like he really delivered some series starring role in England either.

Hayden has success across SC against tough bowling attacks for those conditions and two strong series in SA, as well as WI, all with nearly twice as many away tests than Jadeja. He is a notably better away player.

Jadejas roles in SA, NZ, Aus, Eng are basically smash and grab away support performances mostly in smaller series samples here and there. He only delivered high in terms of output in WI and SL.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Jadejas roles in SA, NZ, Aus, Eng are basically smash and grab away support performances mostly in smaller series samples here and there. He only delivered high in terms of output in WI and SL.

You can question the sample for Australia, but surely not the quality of his performances or output in the games he did play. 14 wickets in 6 innings is extremely good output (well over 2 wickets per innings). You must have just looked at WPM but its misleading in this case because one game got washed out in the second innings and in another, he broke his hand and couldnt bowl.

It's actually hilarious how both Ashwin and Jadeja's performances in Australia get relegated to "support" performances when everyone who isn't a biased hackfraud will have watched that series and understood how crucial they were. Bumrah picked up a mightly 11 wickets in 3 tests but apparently, he was the lone star and the spinners were just along for the ride. Remove the hate goggles ffs the spinners were just as if not more important in that second series win.

 

[subshakerz]

You can question the sample for Australia, but surely not the quality of his performances or output in the games he did play. 14 wickets in 6 innings is extremely good output (well over 2 wickets per innings). You must have just looked at WPM but its misleading in this case because one game got washed out in the second innings and in another, he broke his hand and couldnt bowl.

It's actually hilarious how both Ashwin and Jadeja's performances in Australia get relegated to "support" performances when everyone who isn't a biased hackfraud will have watched that series and understood how crucial they were. Bumrah picked up a mightly 11 wickets in 3 tests but apparently, he was the lone star and the spinners were just along for the ride. Remove the hate goggles ffs the spinners were just as if not more important in that second series win.

You can bowl very well and still be a support role. It was a collective bowling effort in those games. I am judging these spinners by the same standards you are supposed to judge worldclass bowlers.

But let's just agree to disagree here. I think we will agree though that Jadeja needs another round of tours to several of these places and by then his case would be clear if he performs again.

 

[kyear2]

Jadeja himself is a brilliant set of hands, giving Hayden the victory over him showcasing fielding is not really.....
Also, no matter the opening tax, Hayden was simply bad in England, South Africa and New Zealand. Away from home, the only place he really had any major impact is in the SC. Only place Jadeja haven't performed really well with the ball is in England, and there too, he was a good support bowler and averages almost 30 with the bat (more than Hayden). Infact, he averages 30+ everywhere he played but SA, where he played only 2 games, including the recent one on where SA scored 55 in the 1st innings and India lost thier last 6 without any runs; including 40+ in Australia. With the ball, Jadeja has the same record as Jim Laker in Australia (15 wickets, 4 games, 21 average). He didn't bowled in the second Test in SA, but in the first took 6 wickets, and has really good record in SL and WI as well. He only doesn't have a good bowling record in WI.

How many matches abroad that he hasn't played in though. It's like Macgill, record probably looks better than I otherwise would because they tend to play mostly in favorable conditions.

So Haydos struggled a bit in unfriendly conditions, but he showed up to struggle.

And while Jadeja is an excellent fielder, the importance of 1st slip / gully supercedes his contributions. This isn't something against him, that's my well known position.

An opener who averaged 50, and at an amazing clip mind you, supercedes the impact of most other positions, add in he brilliance at gully and at 1st slip to Warne and it takes a lot to beat that. Jadeja for me doesn't. If you want to say one was a HTB, then both are tbh.

 

[capt_Luffy]

How many matches abroad that he hasn't played in though. It's like Macgill, record probably looks better than I otherwise would because they tend to play mostly in favorable conditions.

So Haydos struggled a bit in unfriendly conditions, but he showed up to struggle.

And while Jadeja is an excellent fielder, the importance of 1st slip / gully supercedes his contributions. This isn't something against him, that's my well known position.

An opener who averaged 50, and at an amazing clip mind you, supercedes the impact of most other positions, add in he brilliance at gully and at 1st slip to Warne and it takes a lot to beat that. Jadeja for me doesn't. If you want to say one was a HTB, then both are tbh.

I didn't say Hayden to be a htb; both are kinda similar in that regards. Jadeja specially didn't played in favourable conditions, he missed the matches he missed for Ashwin. In away matches outside SC, you hardly find pitches suitable for 2 spinners. Also, Jadeja played 40.5% matches away while Hayden did 45%; significant, but not so much. Overall, yeah a 50+ averaging opener in home and SC is great, but I would probably prefer a genuinely great left arm orthodox bowling all rounder.

 

[kyear2]

I didn't say Hayden to be a htb; both are kinda similar in that regards. Jadeja specially didn't played in favourable conditions, he missed the matches he missed for Ashwin. In away matches outside SC, you hardly find pitches suitable for 2 spinners. Also, Jadeja played 40.5% matches away while Hayden did 45%; significant, but not so much. Overall, yeah a 50+ averaging opener in home and SC is great, but I would probably prefer a genuinely great left arm orthodox bowling all rounder.

We can agree to disagree.

But a bowling all rounder that bats at 6 or 7 to modest results, and outside of the SC is a support bowler when he plays can't be more important to a team than a left handed 50 average aggressive opener who was at first slip to McGrath and infinitely more importantly Warne.

 

[capt_Luffy]

We can agree to disagree.

But a bowling all rounder that bats at 6 or 7 to modest results, and outside of the SC is a support bowler when he plays can't be more important to a team than a left handed 50 average aggressive opener who was at first slip to McGrath and infinitely more importantly Warne.

Jadeja returns genuinely great results in the SC and outside of home and SC, Hayden's record is also really mediocre; he isn't really consistent across everywhere like Graeme Smith. And as for fielding, yeah I can't really give Hayden too many points over Jadeja..... Overall, I would personally prefer a sub 25 with ball and 35+ with bat player over a 50+ opener, but we surely can disagree and overall it's really close.

 

[Slifer]

What if Sobers bowled less, batted more at 4 and averaged 70?

Sobers could've gotten close to that 70 average if he had just feasted on New Zealand the way the 3Ws did.

 

[Coronis]

Sobers could've gotten close to that 70 average if he had just feasted on New Zealand the way the 3Ws did.

Whose fault is that though? He had more matches against them than all 3 combined.

 

[Slifer]

Whose fault is that though? He had more matches against them than all 3 combined.

His fault and it's really a head scratcher why he did as bad as he did.

 

[BazBall21]

Hayden wasnt outright bad in SA, I am forced to admit. He had two impactful series in the 2000s.

And Jadeja failing in England is the only decent country where he has extensively played. He averages less with the bat than Hayden in England. But the main issue is that he has 28 tests overall overseas and a lot of the stats you show from him are misleading to his actual impact overall.

Yeah Hayden had two good tours of SA. The attacks weren't as good as the 90s and 2008-2018 but his record there shouldn't be held against him as much as it is. England was his worst conditions. Struggled against the extra swing.