Overrated by CW XI and Underrated by CW XI

[BazBall21]

Just being fair in delulu land.

The Davidson stuff is definitely a thing. Don't think bowlers are as egregiously over or under rated either way but I also think Davidson doesn't get the longevity asterix other players with similar length careers do.

That's because bowling is less volatile so judging batsmen is a more colourfully opinionated activity.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

I didn't say his career but era. He was the best batsman of his generation. And this is a typical revisionist post which underplays his strengths and overplays his weaknesses. He had trouble against Harbhajan but he did very well against Murali in SL so can't have been a hopeless player of spin and I doubt someone with serious issues against movement could outdo Kallis in SA. Yeah
You might be rate about him still being seen as top 15 because it's just a couple of obnoxious blow-ins who seem to have a vendetta against him.

I forgot Donald but he's another bloke who was a lot more celebrated during his career and immediately after than he is now on here. Might be another one underrated because of edgelordism.

Don’t have a problem with him being rated top 15 but his runs in SA were probably against their weakest attacks since readmission. Probably similar to Kohli against lateral movement. Ponting against spin is similar to Dravid/Pujara against fast bowling

 

[BazBall21]

Bill Johnston probably deserves a bit more mention than he gets.

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Real CW Underrated XI

Zak Crawley - generational talent
Ben Duckett - modern day Greenidge
Joe Root - best batsman in the world in a challenging era for batting
Ben Stokes - atg all-rounder and best captain since Frank Worrell, if not ever.
Ravi Bopara - noone else is Ravi Bopara
Johnny Bairstow - played an awesome innings last time I saw him live
Moeen Ali - classy batsman (circa 2014) and probably England's greatest offspinner since Swann.
Chris Woakes - better than Imran in all three disciplines
Stuart Broad - took 604 Test wickets. That's 602 more than supposed "greatest Test player ever" Donald Bradman
Kyle Jarvis - non-Englishman to show how un-partisan I am
James Anderson - his excellence and sometimes his very existence makes every other nation beside themselves with jealousy.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Real CW Underrated XI

Zak Crawley - generational talent
Ben Duckett - modern day Greenidge
Joe Root - best batsman in the world in a challenging era for batting
Ben Stokes - atg all-rounder and best captain since Frank Worrell, if not ever.
Ravi Bopara - noone else is Ravi Bopara
Johnny Bairstow - played an awesome innings last time I saw him live
Moeen Ali - classy batsman (circa 2014) and probably England's greatest offspinner since Swann.
Chris Woakes - better than Imran in all three disciplines
Stuart Broad - took 604 Test wickets. That's 602 more than supposed "greatest Test player ever" Donald Bradman
Kyle Jarvis - non-Englishamn to show how un-partisan I am
James Anderson - his excellence and sometimes his very existence makes every other nation beside themselves with jealousy.

Harry Brook too

 

[capt_Luffy]

Overrated XI:

Sehwag
Hayden
Ponting
Dravid
Root
ABD
Ashwin
Philander
Lillee
Trueman
Roberts

Averages flatter them

Mate I would consider over half the list for underrated XI; at most Root (based on the last poll) and might be ABD can be considered slightly overrated....

 

[Red_Ink_Squid]

Harry Brook too

I thought everyone here rightly rated him as "incredible".

If not, he totally makes the XI, yeah.

He can replace Jarvis.

 

[kyear2]

Underrated XI:

Hanif Mohammad. Extremely long career where he debuted as a teen and played through the toughest era for batting. Averaged more than Simpson and Lawry when his career overlapped with theirs.

Bill Ponsford: better than Morris and Simpson also as far as Aussie openers go but rarely mentioned.

Ricky Ponting: suffers from longevity bias and edgelordism. Best batsman of an era.

Javed Miandad: was seen as an equal for Border if not better during their careers but has been downgraded to sub ATG status for some reason. Nobody mentions him owning Hadlee into oblivion home and away.

Andy Flower: was the best batsman in the world for a time. Unfortunately check-listed to look less monumental than he was occasionally.

Clem Hill: better than Trumper. Played some clutch knocks that fly under the radar because they weren't huge scores.

Colin Cowdrey: first to play 100 tests. Longevity bias again. Better record than Dexter, May etc after as many matches as they played.

John Waite: Knott before Knott.

Ray Lindwall: elite. Unusually long career by the standards of the time again. As good as Davo after the same number of matches.

Brian Statham: people tend to over rate solid consistently 8/10 seamers compared to relatively flashier flashes in the pan like Harris and Tyson.

Dennis Lillee: can we just not anymore? This is dumb, it was always dumb and has run its course now.

Lance Gibbs: people don't realise the statistical penalty of playing 2 decades on awful pitches.

A common theme for most of these.

Love the list

 

[trundler]

Rated fairly on CW compared to elsewhere

Hayden: dangerous but flawed player. Some extreme(ly dumb) positions on him either way but the consensus on him is right. Second tier opener.

Gordon Greenidge: generally underrated but not here. Rare ATG attacking opener who was great home and away. Averages nerfed by a long career in a tough era but a rare one who's rated appropriately despite that.

Hashim Amla: not ATG by any means but was excellent for a long time and is recognised as such. Average suffers from not being a deserter unlike De Villiers but I think this is recognised.

Martin Crowe: flies under the radar a bit generally because of his overall average underselling him but surprisingly the context around his career is taken into account when rating him. Borderline ATG/ATVG is correct.

Steve Waugh: rated about where he should be I think. Not as good as Ponting, Kallis etc who batted up top but he was top class in a tough era. Bit overrated outside CW.

Inzi/VVS: rated appropriately I think. Casuals get carried away because of how these guys looked when on song but had some glaring flaws. Both favourites to watch highlights of personally but yeah ATVGs, both of em.

BJ Watling: gun player. Not many better aside from Gilchrist by keeper batsman standards. People overestimate what a realistic ceiling for WKB output is but Watling is rightly recognised as a second tier WKB by all time standards.

Richard Hadlee: expert consensus on him is bat**** insane. One of the absolute best ever and rightly regarded as such. Every now and again someone posts an expert's list where Peter May or someone is ranked ahead of Paddles and we come together to laugh at it.

Ravi Ashwin: despite a lot of polarising discussions he's recognised as one of the greatest match winners at home who also has the best performance by a finger spinner in living memory Down Under. Gun bowling AR too.

Joel Garner: Big Bird gets a lot of love on here and deservedly so. Touch underrated outside CW.

Shane Bond: him being a myth isn't a fringe opinion anymore but Anderson below Bond is. Over time longevity supremacy has gained traction on here.

 

[BazBall21]

Outside here, Compton was very overrated. He got rated over Hadlee by the English journalists/commentators a few times

 

[BazBall21]

Rated fairly on CW compared to elsewhere

Hayden: dangerous but flawed player. Some extreme(ly dumb) positions on him either way but the consensus on him is right. Second tier opener.

Gordon Greenidge: generally underrated but not here. Rare ATG attacking opener who was great home and away. Averages nerfed by a long career in a tough era but a rare one who's rated appropriately despite that.

Hashim Amla: not ATG by any means but was excellent for a long time and is recognised as such. Average suffers from not being a deserter unlike De Villiers but I think this is recognised.

Martin Crowe: flies under the radar a bit generally because of his overall average underselling him but surprisingly the context around his career is taken into account when rating him. Borderline ATG/ATVG is correct.

Steve Waugh: rated about where he should be I think. Not as good as Ponting, Kallis etc who batted up top but he was top class in a tough era. Bit overrated outside CW.

Inzi/VVS: rated appropriately I think. Casuals get carried away because of how these guys looked when on song but had some glaring flaws. Both favourites to watch highlights of personally but yeah ATVGs, both of em.

BJ Watling: gun player. Not many better aside from Gilchrist by keeper batsman standards. People overestimate what a realistic ceiling for WKB output is but Watling is rightly recognised as a second tier WKB by all time standards.

Richard Hadlee: expert consensus on him is bat**** insane. One of the absolute best ever and rightly regarded as such. Every now and again someone posts an expert's list where Peter May or someone is ranked ahead of Paddles and we come together to laugh at it.

Ravi Ashwin: despite a lot of polarising discussions he's recognised as one of the greatest match winners at home who also has the best performance by a finger spinner in living memory Down Under. Gun bowling AR too.

Joel Garner: Big Bird gets a lot of love on here and deservedly so. Touch underrated outside CW.

Shane Bond: him being a myth isn't a fringe opinion anymore but Anderson below Bond is. Over time longevity supremacy has gained traction on here.

Garner is definitely underrated outside here. He didn't make a few top 100s of all time which was perplexing.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Garner is definitely underrated outside here. He didn't make a few top 100s of all time which was perplexing.

Especially when you consider his batting

 

[BazBall21]

Think Shiv is quite fairly rated here.

 

[trundler]

Outside here, Compton was very overrated.

Had him in the honourable mentions mentally but forgot to write those down. Hugh Tayfield, Dudley Nourse and Bruce Mitchell are underrated outside CW. Kanhai, Compton and Dexter while not overrated by the general public have reputations exceeding how good they actually were but are all rated accurately on here.

 

[kyear2]

Overrated XI:

Sehwag
Hayden
Ponting
Dravid
Root
ABD
Ashwin
Philander
Lillee
Trueman
Roberts

Averages flatter them

Ponting, Lillee, Roberts are the furthest thing from over rated and makes me wonder if people here even watched cricket.

 

[BazBall21]

Cook quite fairly rated I would say. I rate him a little lower than the average consensus here but his frailties and accomplishments both seem to get stably acknowledged. Placed a level below Smith, Sehwag and Hayden which I agree with but he nilled Pujara and got plenty of love on the international teams best left handers post.

 

[BazBall21]

Had him in the honourable mentions mentally but forgot to write those down. Hugh Tayfield, Dudley Nourse and Bruce Mitchell are underrated outside CW. Kanhai, Compton and Dexter while not overrated by the general public have reputations exceeding how good they actually were but are all rated accurately on here.

Yeah. Compton is obviously overrated outside but not really here these days. Similar to May who I actually think might be better than Compton. I would add Cullinan to that Saffa trio who suffers a borderline laughing stock status which is obviously unfair. Very good test bat.

Kanhai is a strange one. Very tidy lack of caveats in his record but considering 60s tax and how flat the pitches were at home, I'd want a few more big hundreds from someone jostling for ATG status. The Indian/Pakistan attacks were often not up to much and they made up half of his opposition.

 

[kyear2]

Simpson averaged about 50 even excluding the no rounder phase which was a substantial part of his career which is for some reason totally ignored. Even then he dropped down the order not infrequently and has much worse numbers when not opening which means his opening numbers are somewhat protected because he just didn't open when he was going through a lean patch. He was captain for most of this period too so it's not like he was dicked around by the selectors. Yet his opening average is extrapolated to his entire career despite him opening for only a part of his career and the rest is ignored.

Sure he was better than both because he was a better batsman but his all round output is similar. Worrell especially isn't that far behind him but no one think he's better than Sobers which is ridiculous.

Tad hyperbolic but it's true. He's now given a place in ATG discussions which he never earned during his actual career.

Sure but him not batting up the order more and not converting as often as the top dog batsman should are legitimate criticisms.

Hard to argue with anything here, I am a bit unsure what you mean in the bolded bit.

And why do some still not factor in Kallis's prowess in the field into his value?

 

[trundler]

Hard to argue with anything here, I am a bit unsure what you mean in the bolded bit.

And why do some still not factor in Kallis's prowess in the field into his value?

I meant Worrell > Sobers is a ridiculous position but Kallis > Sobers isn't even though Worrell and Kallis are closer than Kallis and Sobers. Worrell > Kallis is a lot more defensible too imo. Charlie Macartney is another in the same tier of AR as far as I'm concerned but this is clearly a fringe opinion so I don't want to go on about it.

 

[kyear2]

I agree he isn't just a touch below Sobers, but still believe he's undervalued a bit.

He executed his role as good as he could have, he was the fifth bowler who also happened to be one of the greatest slip fielders who have ever played the game.. He and Hammond were just ideal utility players who I believe were just underrated as cricketers