Overrated by CW XI and Underrated by CW XI

[OverratedSanity]

greatest all rounders in the history of the game?

he has barely played a match of historical importance. His track record is beating up weak teams most often on tailored home pitches. You can argue that it’s not his fault that he plays for Bangla but he’s barely been tested against the best so there is no basis for his greaness. You can’t just look at a stats line, have to look at context.

and this is before match fixing and otherwise repellent behavior.

I've watched plenty of games of his . He's won test matches vs Australia, England, Sri Lanka basically on his own despite playing for a terrible team. You can delve into and look at his actual performances instead of the stats, they stand up to scrutiny very well. Hardly empty numbers like you're making out.

 

[OverratedSanity]

less proven is an understatement. At best he’s like a Ryan ten Doeschate, a what might have been? To put him in the category of aKapil or Botham or Imran or even a Stokes is blasphemous.

I admit to blasphemy. Others should try it some time tbh.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Remove minnows and WI and he still averages 38 with the bat and 34 with the ball. 4 of his 5 hundreds and 13 of his 19 5fers against this opposition. Anyone calling him a hack who only has good numbers vs crap opposition is a moron imo. Those are numbers most all rounders would love to have.

Less tests abroad, yes. But he's played decent opposition quite a bit in tests and excelled.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

The only opposition he doesn't have good numbers against is India. Against everyone else hes done brilliantly atleast in one of the two disciplines, often both. And again, won them games. It was a small tragedy that teams stopped touring Bangladesh just when they figured out they could beat the SENA teams on spinning decks at home. Cowards imo.

 

[ma1978]

Remove minnows and WI and he still averages 38 with the bat and 34 with the ball. 4 of his 5 hundreds and 13 of his 19 5fers against this opposition. Anyone calling him a hack who only has good numbers vs crap opposition is a moron imo. Those are numbers most all rounders would love to have.

Less tests abroad, yes. But he's played decent opposition quite a bit in tests and excelled.

All-round records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

The only opposition he doesn't have good numbers against is India. Against everyone else hes done brilliantly atleast in one of the two disciplines, often both. And again, won them games. It was a small tragedy that teams stopped touring Bangladesh just when they figured out they could beat the SENA teams on spinning decks at home. Cowards imo.

compare those numbers to his direct peer Jadeja and you will see where he ranks relatively.

and as good as Jadeja is he is still some distance from being an ATG all rounder

 

[OverratedSanity]

compare those numbers to his direct peer Jadeja and you will see where he ranks relatively.

"Worse than Jadeja" doesn't make him a hack. Jadeja is one of the all time greats himself.

 

[ataraxia]

compare those numbers to his direct peer Jadeja and you will see where he ranks relatively.

Well you can't expect everyone to be as good as Jadeja. He's more Botham-level tbh.

 

[Flem274*]

I also think there's a strong argument for Shakib > Jadeja.

Jadeja is the better bowler. Despite the random overseas droppings and Shakib having less mates who are any chop, I'm pretty comfortable with people saying Jadeja was the better bowler. Superficially their batting averages might be similar (I cbf checking) but one batted 7-8 for much of his career and has only come good relatively recently at 6 and the other always bats in the top 5 for his side and can bat #3 if needed.

Shakib is a massive prick but he is a great allrounder and picking between him and Jadeja largely comes down to where you need someone to bat imo.

If Shakib was from a correct country he would be a global superstar. There isn't a team he doesn't make, even India with that shitshow of a middle order since 2019ish and their ongoing search for even more allrounders (Pandya, Thakur).

I was offering him and Tamim NZ citizenship since like 2013. Still would provided he was banned from having his personality.

 

[trundler]

I disagree with about half of this – like pretty much every list in this thread – and detest the hyperbole, but I did get a kick out of the Olivier–Larwood comparison, lol.

Do you not like Fazal anymore?

Hyperbole? I was very fair.

I do like him and he gets pioneer points but I figured I may as well use this list to go on a tangential rant about HTBs. Don't think any pacer is egregiously rated either way aside from the dumb Lillee stuff which has run its course.

 

[shortpitched713]

Kallis as a bowler is "useful" at best. Hammond, Steve Waugh and Dexter I would rank in that category. Not quite as good but, looking at averages, close.

I suppose a merely "useful" bowler could do this:

ENG vs SA Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Leeds, August 21 - 25, 2003

Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, ENG vs SA, South Africa tour of England and Ireland 2003 at Headingley, Leeds dated August 21 - 25, 2003.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[BazBall21]

61 wickets in 51 tests across eight of the ten countries he bowled in.

 

[shortpitched713]

Hammond is widely considered the best batsman after Bradman.

So I guess Cornwall and Inzamam called him that?

Because I haven't read too much of this opinion otherwise, especially among more contemporary commentators with more scope for comparison.

 

[kyear2]

Hammond more than matches Kallis in the batting and fielding departments.
Kallis was a better bowler but neither were "great" in that area. Kallis wins that all-rounder aspect

But that's not the definition of an all rounder. None of them are great in both aspects.

Imran, Hadlee nor Pollock were great batsmen, Sobers wasn't a great bowler.

But what they were were great within the context the roles that were required and were they batted (lower order) and when the bowled (third change)

 

[Line and Length]

I suppose a merely "useful" bowler could do this:

ENG vs SA Cricket Scorecard, 4th Test at Leeds, August 21 - 25, 2003

Get cricket scorecard of 4th Test, ENG vs SA, South Africa tour of England and Ireland 2003 at Headingley, Leeds dated August 21 - 25, 2003.

www.espncricinfo.com

A more than useful match as a bowler. That game apart his bowling produced a useful average of 33.4

 

[kyear2]

Hammond is widely considered the best batsman after Bradman. Suggesting Kallis is a better bat is a very niche view

He hasn't been considered that since Sobers, far less Viv, Tendulkar, Lara and Smith. Actually was he ever seen as being better than Hobbs? And of course Sir Len

 

[kyear2]

Overrated XI

Saeed Anwar: A little overrated considering his short career.
Bob Simpson: Only judged on his opening record despite the fact that he dropped down the order a lot even during his 'peak' and opened in a soft era which isn't held against him unlike modern openers.
Ken Barrington: Short career, soft era but big flashy numbers sway some simpletons.
Jacques Kallis: Supremely overrated as an AR. Not better than Worrell or Dexter.
AB De Villiers: There were about 10 better batsmen during his career.
Allan Border: escapes the scrutiny other makers of pretty 50s and lower order refugees receive.
Keeper: idk.
Alan Davidson: batting is an utter myth based on Shield performances which were incredibly inflated considering every other notable Aussie AR was a much worse test batsman than FC. Short career also.
Shaun Pollock:
Harold Larwood: he's basically a one series wonder like Duanne Olivier. Objectively a nobody.
Graeme Swann: huge test spam beneficiary and a coward.
Alec Bedser/Fazal Mahmood: third seamer was a tough call so I'm just going for old timey HTBs who often get less criticism than modern HTBs.

No problem with most of the list, just a few observations.

Yes Simpson is being judged as an opener, if he filling the opener role in your team, don't think that's egregious. Plus, for the very brief time I was considering him it was primarily because of the added utility of his bowling and catching.

Kallis is a better overall cricketer than either gentleman though. He was a much better batsman, at worst a comparable bowler but his catching just pushes him even further ahead. I think Kallis was actually used perfectly, it's guys like Sobers who were over bowled.

That's a bit harsh on ABbeV

And just to say Border kept that team together and that batting lineup from being destroyed at times. Wasn't an easy era by any means.

 

[BazBall21]

Border is a top 20 test batsman of all time but should get nearly as much SR scrutiny as Boycott. If not as much in fact.

 

[Howe_zat]

This has got to be the subject that openly invites the most unverifiable made-up tat.

'What consensus have you imagined lately'?

 

[trundler]

Underrated XI:

Hanif Mohammad. Extremely long career where he debuted as a teen and played through the toughest era for batting. Averaged more than Simpson and Lawry when his career overlapped with theirs.

Bill Ponsford: better than Morris and Simpson also as far as Aussie openers go but rarely mentioned.

Ricky Ponting: suffers from longevity bias and edgelordism. Best batsman of an era.

Javed Miandad: was seen as an equal for Border if not better during their careers but has been downgraded to sub ATG status for some reason. Nobody mentions him owning Hadlee into oblivion home and away.

Andy Flower: was the best batsman in the world for a time. Unfortunately check-listed to look less monumental than he was occasionally.

Clem Hill: better than Trumper. Played some clutch knocks that fly under the radar because they weren't huge scores.

Colin Cowdrey: first to play 100 tests. Longevity bias again. Better record than Dexter, May etc after as many matches as they played.

John Waite: Knott before Knott.

Ray Lindwall: elite. Unusually long career by the standards of the time again. As good as Davo after the same number of matches.

Brian Statham: people tend to over rate solid consistently 8/10 seamers compared to relatively flashier flashes in the pan like Harris and Tyson.

Dennis Lillee: can we just not anymore? This is dumb, it was always dumb and has run its course now.

Lance Gibbs: people don't realise the statistical penalty of playing 2 decades on awful pitches.

A common theme for most of these.

 

[BazBall21]

Underrated XI:

Hanif Mohammad. Extremely long career where he debuted as a teen and played through the toughest era for batting. Averaged more than Simpson and Lawry when his career overlapped with theirs.

Bill Ponsford: better than Morris and Simpson also as far as Aussie openers go but rarely mentioned.

Ricky Ponting: suffers from longevity bias and edgelordism. Best batsman of an era.

Javed Miandad: was seen as an equal for Border if not better during their careers but has been downgraded to sub ATG status for some reason. Nobody mentions him owning Hadlee into oblivion home and away.

Andy Flower: was the best batsman in the world for a time. Unfortunately check-listed to look less monumental than he was occasionally.

Clem Hill: better than Trumper. Played some clutch knocks that fly under the radar because they weren't huge scores.

Colin Cowdrey: first to play 100 tests. Longevity bias again. Better record than Dexter, May etc after as many matches as they played.

John Waite: Knott before Knott.

Ray Lindwall: elite. Unusually long career by the standards of the time again. As good as Davo after the same number of matches.

Brian Statham: people tend to over rate solid consistently 8/10 seamers compared to relatively flashier flashes in the pan like Harris and Tyson.

Dennis Lillee: can we just not anymore? This is dumb, it was always dumb and has run its course now.

Lance Gibbs: people don't realise the statistical penalty of playing 2 decades on awful pitches.

A common theme for most of these.

Gibbs is a great shout. Brilliant test cricketer.

 

[BazBall21]

Border has a better away record but Miandad was better at no4