England thread

[loterry1994]

But would the 2019 team have won the World Cup in any other country? I suspect if this World Cup was in England, you'd see this bowling line up causing rather more problems to opposition - we know how Woakes works for starters.

I also think there's a big difference between T20 bowling to ODI, Curran being the perfect example. You need bona fide wicket takers, not those who only pick them up when the batsmen start slogging. In English conditions, Woakes, Archer, Wood ticked all the right boxes in 2019.

Who knows if they would of won elsewhere but obviously they would of planned their bowling line up knowing it was going to be in England years prior also.

the problem with Curran I said it before in odis you can’t be like that guy in t20s where you mainly bowl varieties like he does. You can get away with it like you said in the middle and later overs when people are slogging more in t20s. But in odis if you don’t have a good stock ball and some consistent lines especially for the powerplay and death overs you’ll likely struggle

 

[Molehill]

Who knows if they would of won elsewhere but obviously they would of planned their bowling line up knowing it was going to be in England years prior also.

the problem with Curran I said it before in odis you can’t be like that guy in t20s where you mainly bowl varieties like he does. You can get away with it like you said in the middle and later overs when people are slogging more in t20s. But in odis if you don’t have a good stock ball and some consistent lines especially for the powerplay and death overs you’ll likely struggle

Agreed, that's why you need Test style wicket takers with the new ball. We can talk about batting line ups all day long, but the top 4 teams in this tournament have the best bowling line ups, and bar the odd specialist ODI spinner, most of them are high quality Test level seamers.

 

[GIMH]

The bowling of the 19 side wasn’t just effective at home. Woakes took more power play wickets than any other bowler in between world cups (or something like that. I haven’t looked it up but I trust Jarrod Kimber). Plunkett was highly effective in the middle overs. And then along came Archer.

Flintoff our top ODI bowler, and possibly player, ever though yeah.

 

[GIMH]

I take the old fashioned view that the best players are those playing in test cricket and when you have a team scoring in tests at one day runs per over then stick with those players. As far as Robinson is concerned his economy rate is generally excellent and he is also a useful batter averaging I think around 25. I just think he’s a better bowler than Atkinson for instance.

History shows us it doesn’t always work like this though. Matt Prior scored fast in Tests but sucked in ODIs for example.

 

[trundler]

History shows us it doesn’t always work like this though. Matt Prior scored fast in Tests but sucked in ODIs for example.

Slater, Sehwag, Botham.

 

[TheJediBrah]

But would the 2019 team have won the World Cup in any other country? I suspect if this World Cup was in England, you'd see this bowling line up causing rather more problems to opposition - we know how Woakes works for starters.

The 2019 team barely "won" the World Cup in England either. Even were we to ignore the controversy of the final result (NZ should have won), England lost 3 group games in 2019 and could have missed out on the semis if not for rain. Not necessarily saying you are doing this now but I see a bit of re-writing history going on painting England 2019 as the dominant team of the tournament. Which just wasn't the case. The only real great effort they had in the tournament was beating Aus in the Semi-Final.

 

[loterry1994]

History shows us it doesn’t always work like this though. Matt Prior scored fast in Tests but sucked in ODIs for example.

Yeah it’s true that 2015 side you had lot of tests specialist stuck in the old style of odi cricket and look where that got them. There’s nothing wrong with having odi and t20 specialists for odis. There’s not one straight formula that works for every team

 

[loterry1994]

The 2019 team barely "won" the World Cup in England either. Even were we to ignore the controversy of the final result (NZ should have won), England lost 3 group games in 2019 and could have missed out on the semis if not for rain. Not necessarily saying you are doing this now but I see a bit of re-writing history going on painting England 2019 as the dominant team of the tournament. Which just wasn't the case. The only real great effort they had in the tournament was beating Aus in the Semi-Final.

yeah they were looking to get knocked out at one stage. But lots of world cups have been like that especially t20 ones. Even if you scrap through to the semis have some momentum than you give yourself a decent shot at winning it. India and Aus dominated the group stages and neither made the final in 2019

 

[Molehill]

The 2019 team barely "won" the World Cup in England either. Even were we to ignore the controversy of the final result (NZ should have won), England lost 3 group games in 2019 and could have missed out on the semis if not for rain. Not necessarily saying you are doing this now but I see a bit of re-writing history going on painting England 2019 as the dominant team of the tournament. Which just wasn't the case. The only real great effort they had in the tournament was beating Aus in the Semi-Final.

I mean they literally had to beat 2 other semi finalists to qualify.

They'd hardly be the first side to struggle early in a World Cup and then come good at the end.

Home advantage is starting to become a massive component to winning a World Cup. The 2011 and 2015 Finals even both featured the joint hosts!

 

[GIMH]

The 2019 team barely "won" the World Cup in England either. Even were we to ignore the controversy of the final result (NZ should have won), England lost 3 group games in 2019 and could have missed out on the semis if not for rain. Not necessarily saying you are doing this now but I see a bit of re-writing history going on painting England 2019 as the dominant team of the tournament. Which just wasn't the case. The only real great effort they had in the tournament was beating Aus in the Semi-Final.

I don’t think anyone really claims we dominated the tournament but rather that we were the best ODI team leading into it. As noted above though, we had to beat India, NZ and Aus in successive games to make the final. Given we won 6 games, the rain thing doesn’t really stand up. You can expect to go through from this format with 6 wins.

 

[GIMH]

Slater, Sehwag, Botham.

Yeah good examples. There’s loads I’m sure.

I mean the point on getting Crawley and Duckett in - that will happen anyway I think, and will go okay. But it has to be on white ball merit.

On a related tangent, and I’ll probably regret saying this having quoted trundler, but I wonder if there will be a clamour for Stokes to take over the white ball captaincy too. Fair to point out the respective sides have gone in different directions since Stokes and Buttler took over them (well, the ODI side - T20 is fine obv). It’s not the way I’d go, but I can see that rumbling coming sooner rather than later? Or maybe Stokes’ knee prevents that from happening.

 

[Molehill]

Yeah good examples. There’s loads I’m sure.

I mean the point on getting Crawley and Duckett in - that will happen anyway I think, and will go okay. But it has to be on white ball merit.

On a related tangent, and I’ll probably regret saying this having quoted trundler, but I wonder if there will be a clamour for Stokes to take over the white ball captaincy too. Fair to point out the respective sides have gone in different directions since Stokes and Buttler took over them (well, the ODI side - T20 is fine obv). It’s not the way I’d go, but I can see that rumbling coming sooner rather than later? Or maybe Stokes’ knee prevents that from happening.

Is there any point playing Stokes again in this World Cup? I don't see him playing white ball cricket again after this tournament.

Duckett's white and red ball form make him an obvious addition to the squad. Salt, Jacks, Crawley, Duckett, Hain........there's plenty of options out there and all would be much better in the field than this ageing lot too.

 

[loterry1994]

Yeah good examples. There’s loads I’m sure.

I mean the point on getting Crawley and Duckett in - that will happen anyway I think, and will go okay. But it has to be on white ball merit.

On a related tangent, and I’ll probably regret saying this having quoted trundler, but I wonder if there will be a clamour for Stokes to take over the white ball captaincy too. Fair to point out the respective sides have gone in different directions since Stokes and Buttler took over them (well, the ODI side - T20 is fine obv). It’s not the way I’d go, but I can see that rumbling coming sooner rather than later? Or maybe Stokes’ knee prevents that from happening.

I wouldn’t have Stokes as white ball captain going forward cause you know he will have to rest a lot between series for his his knee and other niggling injuries. They need someone who will be consistently playing odis and t20s kind of like Eoin Morgan did and not just show up a few bilateral series here and there and also the world Cup. England might be in for a rebuild they need something who will be there consistently

in my opinion I’d be having one the younger guys as captain going forward who they know will be consistently in the t20 and odi sides for the next 4-5 years. And that would be guys like Brook, Duckett, Livingstone etc

 

[grecian]

personally thought the pitches in 2019 went against our undoubted strength, our incredible batting that propelled us to number 1 in the World, particularly the final, pudding of a pitch. Forgetting how good we were, and the huge totals we wracked up before 2019, is truly revisionist.

As for picking 50 overs team on 50 overs performance, umm we are not playing those, so we are going to have to take a punt with Crawley, Duckett and Pope.

 

[social]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717603106953756996

 

[Ashes81]

Players often retire after WCs and I think regardless of how we performed, certain players such as Malan, Bairstow, Moeen, Rashid, Woakes, Willey, Wood - would be considering retiring from ODIs.

Some of those decisions will now be taken out of their hands.

But we have to be careful not to over react.

There's a T20 WC 7 months away and whilst certain players such as Woakes, Malan, Bairstow should make way in ODIs, they still have much to offer at T20.

The same goes for the management - I would keep Buttler as captain and probably Mott as coach and review those positions after the T20 WC.

Both Buttler and Mott have serious questions to answer but they were in charge in last years T20 WC when we won, so must have leadership qualities.

We need a major shake up in our ODI approach, but that doesn't need to extend in to all white ball cricket.

 

[Nintendo]

Players often retire after WCs and I think regardless of how we performed, certain players such as Malan, Bairstow, Moeen, Rashid, Woakes, Willey, Wood - would be considering retiring from ODIs.

Some of those decisions will now be taken out of their hands.

But we have to be careful not to over react.

There's a T20 WC 7 months away and whilst certain players such as Woakes, Malan, Bairstow should make way in ODIs, they still have much to offer at T20.

The same goes for the management - I would keep Buttler as captain and probably Mott as coach and review those positions after the T20 WC.

Both Buttler and Mott have serious questions to answer but they were in charge in last years T20 WC when we won, so must have leadership qualities.

We need a major shake up in our ODI approach, but that doesn't need to extend in to all white ball cricket.

I don't think the approach is the issue. England had a method under Morgan that their current middle order just can't do. Buttler is batting a spot too high and Brook isn't a player who can score at run a ball in the middle overs without consistent dismissals right now. That and their bowling is dog****.

In 2019, the idea was that roy and bairstow go hard up top, than root, morgan and stokes knock it around at run a ball in the middle before england unload and go crazy for the last ~15 overs. They've got malan opening now, who's not the consistent fast scorer roy was, and a 5-6 of buttler-livingstone or buttler-brook. There not able to replicate the above par scores that they use to with this current lot, and the bowlers are ****. Woakes was one of the best pp bowlers in the world in 2019 and has lost the plot, jofra is injured, and wood isn't able to do the job plunkett did so well.

 

[dannythomas]

Agreed, that's why you need Test style wicket takers with the new ball. We can talk about batting line ups all day long, but the top 4 teams in this tournament have the best bowling line ups, and bar the odd specialist ODI spinner, most of them are high quality Test level seamers.

Agree 100%. Do Australia leave out Green, Starc, Cummins and Hazelwood ? Their odi team is almost identical to their test team and yet they are 2nd in ODI rankings.

 

[social]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1717548758840516885

 

[Anil]

Are we forgetting Stuart Broad so quickly ?

Who?