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*Official* Match #10 — Australia Vs South Africa Oct 12th, Lucknow

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
You know what this is all horse**** anyway and without the nothing player Stoinis there wouldn't even be an issue. While it's tempting to blame personnel for losing and pretend you have better options at home, sometimes your best players just play poorly and/or are not good enough. On paper the Aus side is still as good as any, but cricket isn't played on paper. The solution is to field better and bat better and bowl better to their potential, which is clearly not happening.

The main obvious personnel issues with this side are Stoinis and maybe Marnus' lack of proven performance. Both of which are solved with Head coming back (then Marnus wouldn't be there) and Green playing instead of Stoinis (which he definitely should be). So they can be solved easily.

The real personnel issues are not having a performing keeper/bat or spinner. Agar's injury probably hurts with this. At full strength they should be fine and there's no issue with team balance the more I think about it.

Blaming tOo mAnY aLl rOuNdErS is ignorance. It's just Stoinis
'The Aus side is still as good as any' is pretty wild as far as statements going. It isn't nearly as good as previous Australian sides, and it's not as good as a few other sides in this competition. This side is like swiss cheese, there's holes all over the show.

But yeah, it is insane that Stoinis still gets picked. His ODI numbers are just next level shithouse. Shows that the Grade Cricketer is right, if you have a decent rig you can hold your spot at any level.
 

Spikey

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Way too much of an overreaction bringing up a whole host of things like awful player management, dubious selections, mental state of the team, coach being a dweeb etc. It’s broken toenails level of reaching for an answer.

The reality is that a couple of injuries have ****ed up the team, Zampa has lost form completely and the team is carrying Stoinis.

The result is a team that is both not particularly strong on paper and also on a bit of a bad run. That’s it.

Very odd to look at this and start psychoanalysing mindsets, wanting coaches axed and players dropped (without suggesting suitable replacements), and generally drawing conclusions based on half baked assumptions. Lots of poor posting in this thread.
this is mostly about it but there was absolutely chaotic selections going on prior to the WC that deserve criticism, and now dropping carey after one game is terrible stuff. has inglis suddenly got better in a week's time or something?
 

CricAddict

Cricketer Of The Year
They should play together though. There's not a permutation of Australian cricketers that is going to perform better.

Head - Warner - Smith - M.Marsh - Inglis/Carey - Maxwell - Green

You're not going to strengthen this in any way by bringing in another specialist batsman, unless it's in addition to these 7 and Green or a keeper bats at 8. Which might be a better option at this stage.
See Warner-Khawaja-Smith-Labu-Head-Carey-Maxwell. That looks a lot more solid at the top with hitters from 5 to 7.
 

TheJediBrah

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this is mostly about it but there was absolutely chaotic selections going on prior to the WC that deserve criticism, and now dropping carey after one game is terrible stuff. has inglis suddenly got better in a week's time or something?
The mistake was not dropping Carey sooner
 

trundler

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They should play together though. There's not a permutation of Australian cricketers that is going to perform better.

Head - Warner - Smith - M.Marsh - Inglis/Carey - Maxwell - Green

You're not going to strengthen this in any way by bringing in another specialist batsman, unless it's in addition to these 7 and Green or a keeper bats at 8. Which might be a better option at this stage.
Nah, that's simultaneously not enough bowling as Green and Marsh will get rekt in India and not solid enough batting as 4-7 are all too hit or miss. That's a very collapse prone middle order and the 5th bowler will go for 80+. Pushing Maxwell up from 7 is a terrible idea demonstrably and Green isn't particularly suited to that either. It's like moving Smith from 3 for a lesser player.
See Warner-Khawaja-Smith-Labu-Head-Carey-Maxwell. That looks a lot more solid at the top with hitters from 5 to 7.
That's a lot better.

I would much rather have a solid batsman capable of batting aggressively a spot or 2 too low (Rizwan/Rahul at 4 instead of opening) than a finisher with little ability to bat properly too high (Neesham, Maxwell etc at 5/6).
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
He was averaging 50 with the bat in ODIs a month ago and had played some real match-winning innings, and while his bowling clearly hasn't clicked yet the building blocks are there. Issue is he is probably another one that should be batting top 4. Anyway the only guy in domestics that probably would be able to do a better job than him at a finisher role is Ashton Turner. Stoinis isn't.
I already said the top 4 batting has been the issue. No one is expecting the all rounders down the order and keeper to bat like 30 overs and rescue the innings. That’s not their main role for the batting, they’re suppose to up the run rate and help with a bigger total later in the innings after a decent platform is set by the top 4. Green, Stoinis, Maxwell etc are not going to save the top 4 failures consistently no matter how good they can be.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
The reason we lost these games isn't just the middle order, obviously. We've fielded like Muppets and our best performimg bats have been crap. I bought up man managment around the middle order cause it's been horrid. We went into this wc with no faith in anyone and got spooked the moment the ball starting turning.
 

TheJediBrah

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See Warner-Khawaja-Smith-Labu-Head-Carey-Maxwell. That looks a lot more solid at the top with hitters from 5 to 7.
Nope, weaker. Khawaja is not going to be better than Mitch Marsh as a white ball batter if both are performing to mean. Labu even less so.
 

Molehill

Cricketer Of The Year
Way too much of an overreaction bringing up a whole host of things like awful player management, dubious selections, mental state of the team, coach being a dweeb etc. It’s broken toenails level of reaching for an answer.

The reality is that a couple of injuries have ****ed up the team, Zampa has lost form completely and the team is carrying Stoinis.

The result is a team that is both not particularly strong on paper and also on a bit of a bad run. That’s it.

Very odd to look at this and start psychoanalysing mindsets, wanting coaches axed and players dropped (without suggesting suitable replacements), and generally drawing conclusions based on half baked assumptions. Lots of poor posting in this thread.
I think there are deeper issues. In that team yesterday, only Inglis (who replaced the over 30 Carey) and Marnus (29) were under 30 (and many are mid 30's). The names being mentioned as potential replacements are either injury prone (Richardson) or even older (Khawaja). You can say that they're not performing, but this is an old team (and I have similar concerns for England but they have less Test players) at the end of a long run of cricket going back to the Ashes (and IPL in some cases).

So yeah, maybe they've got a couple of injuries that have screwed up the balance of the team, but this seems to have been a downward curve since 2015 and is so many of those same players still.
 

Spikey

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You're absolutely cooked if you think Mitch Marsh wouldn't have been one of the first picked in this side right now even if he didn't bowl, which he isn't anyway. Fr what specialist batsman is getting picked ahead of Mitch Marsh as of the WC squad selection?

mmarsh averages 33.40 in OD cricket. now given I was famously on the "pick MMarsh over Stoins" side for the 2019 WC when others weren't, it's not like I'm saying this out of a position of dislike for the fella. he absolutely should be the #1 seam all-rounder. forgive me for not considering him an automatic selection in the team if he isn't bowling.

I don't disagree that his T20 exploits at number 3 means that he's, essentially, being picked as a specialist top order batter in ODI cricket. I just don't think he actually should be. but I get the #narratives that ensure he's getting these shots. I don't think it was realstic but yeah I would absoutaly have Usman as an opener over MMarsh in OD cricket for example.
 

Spikey

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mmarsh averages 33.40 in OD cricket. now given I was famously on the "pick MMarsh over Stoins" side for the 2019 WC when others weren't, it's not like I'm saying this out of a position of dislike for the fella. he absolutely should be the #1 seam all-rounder. forgive me for not considering him an automatic selection in the team if he isn't bowling.

I don't disagree that his T20 exploits at number 3 means that he's, essentially, being picked as a specialist top order batter in ODI cricket. I just don't think he actually should be. but I get the #narratives that ensure he's getting these shots. I don't think it was realstic but yeah I would absoutaly have Usman as an opener over MMarsh in OD cricket for example.
i also think something, I think, has gone unsaid is that they got the Aaron Finch gamble wrong. He never should have been retiring in 2022. that's hurt things.
 

SteveNZ

Cricketer Of The Year
At the end of the day, however Australia have gone into this tournament man-management wise (I have no idea), they may as well pick all their match-winners (but not Stoinis because he is barely FC level) and hope for a miracle. There's not enough quality to do anything else. Pick your biggest batting firepower from 1-8, pick Cummins/Haze/Starc (or Zampa if you think it's really going to turn) and hope to **** you come off with the bat, and the ball doesn't travel too far.
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
The reason we lost these games isn't just the middle order, obviously. We've fielded like Muppets and our best performimg bats have been crap. I bought up man managment around the middle order cause it's been horrid. We went into this wc with no faith in anyone and got spooked the moment the ball starting turning.
You’ve got a good point. A lot the others big teams like India, Pakistan, England etc have had injuries and worries before this tournament started and were better prepared for it. We had something similar but we just rely on our test side for replacements but didn’t have much people up and coming to take over in the shorter formats. Those other teams have a lot of other players pushing for a spot if someone has an injury or can’t make it but we don’t.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
mmarsh averages 33.40 in OD cricket. now given I was famously on the "pick MMarsh over Stoins" side for the 2019 WC when others weren't, it's not like I'm saying this out of a position of dislike for the fella. he absolutely should be the #1 seam all-rounder. forgive me for not considering him an automatic selection in the team if he isn't bowling.

I don't disagree that his T20 exploits at number 3 means that he's, essentially, being picked as a specialist top order batter in ODI cricket. I just don't think he actually should be. but I get the #narratives that ensure he's getting these shots. I don't think it was realstic but yeah I would absoutaly have Usman as an opener over MMarsh in OD cricket for example.
Even with the two failures marsh has averaged 55 opening the batting from 8 innings and is in the top 5 fastest scorers in the PP in the last 2 years in ODI. You can think he shouldn't be opening and come up for whatever reason you think so. 3 months ago ide have agreed with you. But head got injured and either side of that injury marsh has been gun opening.
 

Nintendo

Cricketer Of The Year
Us getting spooked in india when the ball turns isn't a new phenomunum, either. Our man managment during the last test tour their was just as bad. Head was left out of the first test cause he apparently wasn't good enough, then was back for the second test. We bought Agar over and played him in the leadup, then when we got conditions that he could play in we flew him back to AUS and parachuted in a guy who wasn't even first choice for his state team at the time.
 

TheJediBrah

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Khawaja over Marsh is an opinion but it's really not justifiable at all going into this tournament. I'm not sure Usman has even been doing much white-ball batting over the last few years.
 

TheJediBrah

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I think right now, for this tournament, another tough call that has to be made is Cummins goes. Drop him for Head when (if) he comes back and the team will be stronger. Cummins isn't offering anything worthwhile with the ball or as captain.
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
Even with the two failures marsh has averaged 55 opening the batting from 8 innings and is in the top 5 fastest scorers in the PP in the last 2 years in ODI. You can think he shouldn't be opening and come up for whatever reason you think so. 3 months ago ide have agreed with you. But head got injured and either side of that injury marsh has been gun opening.
Warners the big issue in my opinion. If he does not get a good start and the run rate is low then it’s just putting pressure on the rest of the order and it’s been showing lately not just this World Cup . That’s why Head is their biggest loss because he was providing the platforms while Warner could go at his own rate. Then the others would come in once the platforms was built
 

loterry1994

International Debutant
Khawaja over Marsh is an opinion but it's really not justifiable at all going into this tournament. I'm not sure Usman has even been doing much white-ball batting over the last few years.
Not that it’s even a chance there’s no way in hell you’d actually want Khawaja in there now. Guys absolute lazy running between the wickets and in the field. The sort of attitude the team doesn’t need right now
 

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