ataraxia
International Coach
I disagree with this pretty strongly, but I think it's such a more interesting debate to have than Ponting vs. Kallis v442 that you get a like anyway. Fab hypothetical.
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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
TheJediBrah
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For the exercise to make sense you have to assume that all the team's bowling needs are met and it's literally a choice between Bradman batting at 11, or another specialist batsman that is at best half as good.
If it's a choice between Bradman at 11 or McGrath/Murali/Donald/Ambrose etc. there are far too many variables about the rest of the team make-up to reach any meaningful conclusion IMO
Prince EWS
Global Moderator
#7s and #8s wouldn't have to worry about running out of partners, they could just bat normally knowing ****ing Bradman was going to come out at 11. There'd definitely end up a double hundred partnership or two, you just know it.
Imagine Chanderpaul and Bradman at 9 down.
ataraxia
International Coach
Yeah that's what I'm taking it on but
- I'm the pariah who thinks Bradman is overrated
- Bradman has a massive proportion of low scores (relative to his average; not in absolute terms but more than one'd expect) and a massive proportion of high scores – doesn't work well in a 10th wicket pairing
- You'll often see him stride to the middle with a tailender at the other end, not a set bat
ataraxia
International Coach
This a good point though. But Gilchrist won't be happy about being at 6...
TheJediBrah
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He'd probably love it tbh
shortpitched713
International Captain
Hmm, interesting discussion.
My point wasn't even to contradict bagapath. I just think it's quite clear there are many examples in actual Test cricket where batting order decisions aren't done on an "optimization" basis that bagapath might prefer. It's just whatever the senior batsmen in the side prefer to bat at, that ends up trumping.
An example is that I think a number of great established middle order bats could have potentially help their team by moving up to 3, due to their technique. But unless they're already a settled, specialist 3 type like a Ponting or Williamson, etc. they'll almost never do it.
My point wasn't even to contradict bagapath. I just think it's quite clear there are many examples in actual Test cricket where batting order decisions aren't done on an "optimization" basis that bagapath might prefer. It's just whatever the senior batsmen in the side prefer to bat at, that ends up trumping.
An example is that I think a number of great established middle order bats could have potentially help their team by moving up to 3, due to their technique. But unless they're already a settled, specialist 3 type like a Ponting or Williamson, etc. they'll almost never do it.
bagapath
International Captain
3/4/5 is interchangeable for many greats like richards/ g chappell/ hammond etc...
and for a select few like s waugh/ border/ ABDV 4-5-6 is interchangeable.
am ok with someone positioning, for example ABDV, anywhere from 3-6 in their team.
in dream teams, two or even three will be batting out of position. for example, if you wanted to have lara/ tendulkar/ kallis and ponting in one team they will have to be squeezed in somehow. it is all about balance. I understand that,.
but 7 is not a specialist batting position. it is for someone with two skills. pushing a non-allrounder like miandad so far down the lineup exposes a flaw in the team building philosophy.
TheJediBrah
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This tends to be the case because of the personnel available, but there's no reason it should be a general rule if circumstances suit. Hypothetically if you have a Kallis or Miller as a 5th bowler, who are batting 6 or above, and say a Sangakkara or Flower (ew) as keeper also batting 6 or above then a specialist batsman at 7 could be the best option. It's just rarely the case
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Logical for Saffas like Duminy etc. to bat 7 if Kallis is batting 4 and AB is keeping at 6.
bagapath
International Captain
I hate myself for not letting this go and continuing to argue... anyways...
If a Miller and Miandad played together in a team, and there are three other middle order bats and one of them is a wicket keeper, there is still no reason to make Miandad bat below Miller or the keeper.
To manage the work load of the keeper and the fifth bowler better, it is only sensible that Miandad bats not lower than no 5 and the all rounder and the wk come after him at 6 and 7.
there is absolutely no reason to have a specialist batsman at no.7; it doesn't happen in any team.
ataraxia
International Coach
Massive generalisation.
TheJediBrah
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I hate myself too, just in general
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
As I just said above, SA used to do it quite often with Kallis at 4 and AB keeping at 6. I think they even batted QDK at 6 with a specialist at 7 post Kallis.
Likewise, Bangladesh usually had/have Shakib and keeper M Rahim/Das in top 6 with specialist bat at 7.
TheJediBrah
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What if Sangakkara was your keeper and Shakib or another all-rounder was in your team and they both were best batting top 6, so you pick Russell Arnold, Hashan Tillakaratne or Samaraweera to bat at no. 7 (which I think might even have happened for SL at some stage)
ataraxia
International Coach
And, as I think you've been a little lacking in NZ references of late, I reckon we should have a specialist bat at 7:
1 Ravindra / o
2 Latham /
3 Conway /
4 Williamson /
5 Mitchell /
6 Blundell + /
7 Phillips /
8 whoever
9 happens
10 to be
11 around
TheJediBrah
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I'm sure Bagapath's answer to this would be that Blundell and Phillips should definitely swap spots, and tbh in this specific case I would agree. Can't see why Philips wouldn't be 6 ahead of Blundell if Blundell had keeping duties as well
ataraxia
International Coach
Because he's better and bats slower
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Nah. Henry Nicholls would be a great no 7.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
In seriousness that's the top 7 I'd like to see as well.