The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Red]

Viv Richards
Brian Lara
Don Bradman
Sachin Tendulkar
Keith Miller
Gary Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Wasim Akram
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
Glenn McGrath

 

[kyear2]

Starting XI
Hutton
Gavaskar
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Sobers
Gilchrist
Marshall
Warne
Steyn
McGrath

Reserves
Richards / Simpson
Smith
Imran
Muralitharan
Knott

Lara
Hadlee


Injury reserves
Kallis
Ambrose

Imran and Steyn are conditions dependent and also how the top order batting is holding up.

 

[shortpitched713]

If it's for "the world", all you'd need to do is play him this clip, and after seeing it he'd have all the motivation he needs:

This was totally my final message. I didn't post anything afterwards sharing my cricket statistical modeling obsessions. Nothing to see here.

 

[shortpitched713]

Having said all that the down right bad decision in your selection is having Miandad bat at 7. Absolutely useless there. No batsman of that style (accumulator)/ caliber (long innings champ) should bat that low in any test team.

I've looked at a lot of player career histories / batting filters ( I swear I have a life), and the more I've done so the more I realize there are quite a lot of examples of players actually playing this way "out of position" for their Test teams. Allan Border, for example, played a big chunk of his career as low as the 6 position, and it's not like he had a lot of batting competition pushing him out of his favored slots.

There are "ideals" for where you'd want batsmen of certain styles and attributes to play. But a lot of time it seems like the senior batsmen just want to settle into position 4 or 5 based on how strong their aversion is to facing the first new ball.

 

[Red]

Not meaning to be a pedant, but Border batted more of his career at either 4 or 5 than he did 6, and he didn’t need to bat 3 with Boon locked in and successful at 3 for a long time

 

[bagapath]

and 7 is not 6.
6 is still late middle order.
7 is where your keeper or all rounder or bowling all rounder bats. not a specialist.
can't let Miandad hanging with the bowlers and expect him to produce the goods.

 

[TheJediBrah]

FYI Bagapath is the batting position police. He is an extremist when it comes to refusing to allow anyone to "bat out of position".

Virtually any team in history would love to have Miandad batting at 7, unless you have a freakish alternative like Gilchrist

 

[bagapath]

FYI Bagapath is the batting position police. He is an extremist when it comes to refusing to allow anyone to "bat out of position".
Virtually any team in history would love to have Miandad batting at 7, unless you have a freakish alternative like Gilchrist

he batted at no.7 once out of 189 innings. I don't know why you are making that assumption without any proof

 

[Prince EWS]

he batted at no.7 once out of 189 innings. I don't know why you are making that assumption without any proof

Haha nothing could have backed up his post more than this reply

 

[bagapath]

Haha nothing could have backed up his post more than this reply

 

[Prince EWS]

View attachment 37421

 

[Prince EWS]

TJB: Bagapath is the batting position police.

Bagapath: Miandad didn't bat #7 much, you can't assume anything about how good he'd be at batting there.

PEWS: You just proved his point.

Bagapath: *continues to prove his point, this time with spreadsheets*

 

[TheJediBrah]

he batted at no.7 once out of 189 innings. I don't know why you are making that assumption without any proof

I know your stance on this concept so I'm not surprised, nor do I think your mind will change, but I mean it's common sense. Bradman probably didn't bat much at no. 7 either but he's obviously still going to be better there than anyone else in history. Or in literally any other batting position

 

[bagapath]

TJB: Bagapath is the batting position police.

Bagapath: Miandad didn't bat #7 much, you can't assume anything about how good he'd be at batting there.

PEWS: You just proved his point.

Bagapath: *continues to prove his point, this time with spreadsheets*

I am happy to concede that I am probably a batting position police; and the spread sheet proves that.
as long as no one pushes Miandad to no.7 with no logic...

 

[bagapath]

I know your stance on this concept so I'm not surprised, nor do I think your mind will change, but I mean it's common sense. Bradman probably didn't bat much at no. 7 either but he's obviously still going to be better there than anyone else in history. Or in literally any other batting position

Bradman would do well at no. 11 too. is that what a team needs from him? more precisely, is that where you get the best out of him?

 

[Prince EWS]

Bradman would do well at no. 11 too. is that what a team needs from him?

If the alternative is him not playing at all, then I'd probably take it.

 

[bagapath]

If the alternative is him not playing at all, then I'd probably take it.

if you are going to find an alternative for him at no 3 and move him to no 11, then your team selection is totally flawed

 

[TheJediBrah]

if you are going to find an alternative for him at no 3 and move him to no 11, then your team selection is totally flawed

That wasn't the context of the discussion though was it? You said:

Having said all that the down right bad decision in your selection is having Miandad bat at 7. Absolutely useless there. No batsman of that style (accumulator)/ caliber (long innings champ) should bat that low in any test team.

He's not useless there. In fact he's probably better there than any regular no.7 in Test history other than Gilchrist

Now if you want to argue that Miandad at 7 is bad selection because he should bat higher and you can make a stronger team by shuffling the order then sure, I'll agree with you. I just don't think there's any truth to the idea that a batsman of Miandad's style wouldn't do a great job at no. 7 if that's what would make the best team given other players available.

 

[bagapath]

That wasn't the context of the discussion though was it? You said:


He's not useless there. In fact he's probably better there than any regular no.7 in Test history other than Gilchrist

Now if you want to argue that Miandad at 7 is bad selection because he should bat higher and you can make a stronger team by shuffling the order then sure, I'll agree with you. I just don't think there's any truth to the idea that a batsman of Miandad's style wouldn't do a great job at no. 7 if that's what would make the best team given other players available.

Yeah, that is my argument.
In my reply to his team, I had already reshuffled his original selection and placed Miandad where he rightfully belongs to underline this point.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Yeah I don't have a problem with that at all. It was the absolute statements that I strongly disagree with. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.