Rahul Dravid vs AB de Villiers, who was better against high quality bowling?

[subshakerz]

Nobody's doing that. Just pointing out you're overrating it.

There's enough there to put him ahead of someone with a spotty record like Dravid against quality bounce and spin.

 

[trundler]

There's enough there to put him ahead of someone with a spotty record like Dravid against quality bounce and spin.

Because you want to include 2009 Johnson and runs on roads in UAE for De Villiers but exclude Dravid's work in much more challenging conditions in WI because they came against non ATG bowlers. Nonsense cherry picking. And De Villiers didn't face much quality spin of the kind Dravid struggled against (Warne and Murali). He has one decent series against Ashwin and Jadeja which Dravid has against better spinners.

 

[subshakerz]

Because you want to include 2009 Johnson and runs on roads in UAE for De Villiers but exclude Dravid's work in much more challenging conditions in WI because they came against non ATG bowlers. Nonsense cherry picking. And De Villiers didn't face much quality spin of the kind Dravid struggled against (Warne and Murali). He has one decent series against Ashwin and Jadeja which Dravid has against better spinners.

Yeah I distinguish between bowling skill and difficult pitches. You don't for some reason.

Dravid sucking against better spinners isn't a point in his favor.

This was 2009 Johnson btw. A beast.

So do you back Dravid over ABD against quality bowling?

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Who would do better against the WI quartet of Marshall Holding Garner Roberts

 

[subshakerz]

Who would do better against the WI quartet of Marshall Holding Garner Roberts

Easily ABD. Not even a question.

 

[trundler]

Yeah I distinguish between bowling skill and difficult pitches. You don't for some reason.

Point is to judge them when batting is difficult. Names on a sheet don't tell the story. You want to rank Azhar Ali's 150 at Rawalpindi against Cummins, Haze, Starc and Lyon over genuinely tough runs then you're free to do so. And you're including meh bowlers in De Villiers's resume too.

Dravid sucking against better spinners isn't a point in his favor.

Lmao this sort of response makes me suspect a learning disability but I'll simplify it for you: De Villiers didn't face spinners that good so how Dravid did against them is irrelevant. I'll wait for you to wilfully misinterpret this somehow.

This was 2009 Johnson btw. A beast.

Still a hit or miss flash in the pan.

So do you back Dravid over ABD against quality bowling?

Obviously.

 

[subshakerz]

Point is to judge them when batting is difficult. Names on a sheet don't tell the story. You want to rank Azhar Ali's 150 at Rawalpindi against Cummins, Haze, Starc and Lyon over genuinely tough runs then you're free to do so. And you're including meh bowlers in De Villiers's resume too.

This is reductive since unless it's an absolute road we still count quality bowlers as a legitimate threat. Whereas if a ball rears up on a pitch it's because it's a bad pitch, not quality bowling. Frankly you are going against the spirit of the question in the thread.

Lmao this sort of response makes me suspect a learning disability but I'll simplify it for you: De Villiers didn't face spinners that good so how Dravid did against them is irrelevant. I'll wait for you to wilfully misinterpret this somehow.

I like how you immediately contradict your own point about pitches increasing bowling quality. Ashwin/Jadeja on those pitches in that series were as much if not bigger threats than Murali/Warne, at least comparable.

Still a hit or miss flash in the pan.

You didn't watch the series because Johnson was breathing fire the same way as he was in 2014. Just ignoring it to pretend ABD didn't face worldclass bowling.

 

[trundler]

This is reductive since unless it's an absolute road we still count quality bowlers as a legitimate threat. Whereas if a ball rears up on a pitch it's because it's a bad pitch, not quality bowling. Frankly you are going against the spirit of the question in the thread.

Missed the point again.

I like how you immediately contradict your own point about pitches increasing bowling quality. Ashwin/Jadeja on those pitches in that series were as much if not bigger threats than Murali/Warne, at least comparable.

I did not. I specifically said Dravid managed at least one great series against each of Warne and Murali which is more than what De Villiers did against quality spin.

Just ignoring it to pretend ABD didn't face worldclass bowling.

Lol no. You are just overrating any decent series De Villiers had disproportionately just because you liked watching him more. Johnson on Australian roads before he put things together at the end of his career did not pose a greater than many attacks Dravid conquered. This is just confirmation bias on your part.

 

[subshakerz]

Missed the point again.

Address the point of this thread not your own subjective definition.

I did not. I specifically said Dravid managed at least one great series against each of Warne and Murali which is more than what De Villiers did against quality spin.

Dravid failed more than he succeeded though so overall he struggled. ABD didn't struggle against spin and played a good sample. When I mention ABD scoring away runs against Kumble and Ajmal too that conveniently doesn't count so you just left it at that Ashwin Jadeja series.

Lol no. You are just overrating any decent series De Villiers had disproportionately just because you liked watching him more. Johnson on Australian roads before he put things together at the end of his career did not pose a greater than many attacks Dravid conquered. This is just confirmation bias on your part.

Johnson was in SA in 2009 and was a beast yet AbD scored. You ignore the runs he scored in 2014 too and the series in 2018

I specifically didn't mention the Australia SA series in 2008 in Australia when ABD also scored because the pitches were flat that series.

Your point should be there isn't enough enough to show for ABD (which is false) but instead you are making Dravid into something he wasn't.

 

[trundler]

Dravid failed more than he succeeded though so overall he struggled.

Against a level De Villiers didn't experience. I cant simplify it further. Improve your comprehension.

When I mention ABD scoring away runs against Kumble and Ajmal too that conveniently doesn't count so you just left it at that Ashwin Jadeja series.

See my Rawalpindi example. Those same pitches sent Mitchell Johnson into retirement despite him being in prime form. Including that throws the whole premise of the thread out of the window and just exposes the fact that you want to pump De Villiers's tires because you like him more.

Your point should be there isn't enough enough to show for ABD (which is false) but instead you are making Dravid into something he wasn't.

Except it's literally the exact other way around. I only said De Villiers's resume is overrated which it definitely is by the standards you apply to cricketers you don't like. You never addressed the fact that looking pretty is a lot easier when you hide down at 5 behind a strong lineup.

Address the point of this thread not your own subjective definition.

I will do as I please, thanks. Dravid was a substantially more accomplished and plain better test batsman than De Villiers and any ethereal perception of perceived solidity means zilch when it didn't amount to better output against any standard of bowling for De Villiers.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Easily ABD. Not even a question.

What about Dravid vs KP against quality bowling?

 

[trundler]

It is very interesting that Subz is trying make De Villiers out to be a clutch slayer of quality bowling when the #1 mark against him for the majority of his career (before he went on a cowardly sabbatical to protect his average, came back, did well and abandoned his team again when they needed him most) was that he piled on mostly soft wanker runs and downhill skiied after 3 better batsmen did the hard yards. Who would think Subshakerz would engage in revisionism in favour of an SA batsman

 

[subshakerz]

See my Rawalpindi example. Those same pitches sent Mitchell Johnson into retirement despite him being in prime form. Including that throws the whole premise of the thread out of the window and just exposes the fact that you want to pump De Villiers's tires because you like him more.

I will do as I please, thanks. Dravid was a substantially more accomplished and plain better test batsman than De Villiers and any ethereal perception of perceived solidity means zilch when it didn't amount to better output against any standard of bowling for De Villiers.

Right so you don't even want to address the thread question itself, but just answer your own question to make Dravid look better. I guess that explains why you ignore the examples I brought.

Next time just state clearly what you are exactly debating so we don't get sidetracked.

 

[ma1978]

There’s a HUGE gap between Murali and Warne (against whom Dravid played match winning knocks) and Kumble and Ajmal

even against Ashwin and Jadeja, AB never came close to playing a match winning knockand didn’t succeed in his match saving one

big difference in outcome

 

[trundler]

Right so you don't even want to address the thread question itself, but just answer your own question to make Dravid look better. I guess that explains why you ignore the examples I brought.

You should read the whole sentence to absorb its meaning. Try again. Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said in the bolded part. I don't even care about Dravid. I just found the overrating of De Villiers very weird.

 

[subshakerz]

It is very interesting that Subz is trying make De Villiers out to be a clutch slayer of quality bowling when the #1 mark against him for the majority of his career (before he went on a cowardly sabbatical to protect his average, came back, did well and abandoned his team again when they needed him most) was that he piled on mostly soft wanker runs and downhill skiied after 3 better batsmen did the hard yards. Who would think Subshakerz would engage in revisionism in favour of an SA batsman

Yeah but I have already downgraded ABD for that, his selfishness, etc. and concede Dravid is better overall.

We are talking about skill versus high end bowling specifically. Get a grip.

 

[subshakerz]

There’s a HUGE gap between Murali and Warne (against whom Dravid played match winning knocks) and Kumble and Ajmal

even against Ashwin and Jadeja, AB never came close to playing a match winning knockand didn’t succeed in his match saving one

big difference in outcome

We are theorizing who would be better against high end spin. Dravid struggled overall, ABD at worst unproven but did as well as he could with what was presented to him.

 

[trundler]

We are talking about skill versus high end bowling specifically. Get a grip.

.. where Dravid was still better in practice.

 

[trundler]

We are theorizing who would be better against high end spin. Dravid struggled overall, ABD at worst unproven but did as well as he could with what was presented to him.

And that's called hyperbole. Moderate success in one series vs mixed results against better quality for longer.

 

[subshakerz]

You should read the whole sentence to absorb its meaning. Try again. Your response has absolutely nothing to do with what I said in the bolded part. I don't even care about Dravid. I just found the overrating of De Villiers very weird.

Are you sure? Seem to be taking this personally.

We saw ABD and Dravid their entire careers. Dravid was definitely more flawed in his skillset except against lateral movement.

I don't think we can have a conversation though since any of ABD positives, including the 2014 Johnson series and 2018 Australia series with Cummins, etc, you don't even want to acknowledge.