Rahul Dravid vs AB de Villiers, who was better against high quality bowling?

[BazBall21]

Batting at 5 after such an OP lineup pretty much neutralises the conditions disadvantage imo.

Not sure it completely neutralises the conditions disadvantage personally but yeah the batting cushion is definitely an argument against him.

 

[trundler]

Not sure it completely neutralises the conditions disadvantage personally but yeah the batting cushion is definitely an argument against him. I would be tempted to take Amla.

You get great value for shots in SA and once the new ball has worn out, it gets easier to score. Batting 5 there especially with a stacked top 4 is a lot easier than batting top 3. Don't think De Villiers should get any conditions points. He wasn't coming in at 3/50 all that often.

 

[BazBall21]

You get great value for shots in SA and once the new ball has worn out, it gets easier to score. Batting 5 there especially with a stacked top 4 is a lot easier than batting top 3. Don't think De Villiers should get any conditions points. He wasn't coming in at 3/50 all that often.

Yeah the outfields Aus/SA are good. It is still a better place for the old ball than Pakistan and West Indies in that era. Tired bowlers point holds to some extent though. Therefore I think this is a better argument for the overseas point as he definitely had a higher average team score entry point than the other two. In terms of skill and results, there's no clear conditions weakness area but you could argue that's helped by batting support. He did do some downhill skiing in the first half of his career. I also think you like your batters who score big hundreds a lot and that seems to be a bigger problem for him than having a big drop-off against quality bowling.

 

[trundler]

Yeah the outfields Aus/SA are good. It is still a better place for the old ball than Pakistan and West Indies in that era. Tired bowlers point holds to some extent though. Therefore I think this is a better argument for the overseas point as he definitely had a higher average team score entry point than the other two. In terms of skill and results, there's no clear conditions weakness area but you could argue that's helped by batting support. He did do some downhill skiing in the first half of his career. I also think you like your batters who score big hundreds a lot and that seems to be a bigger problem for him than having a big drop-off against quality bowling.

De Villiers to me is basically a #5 Anwar with a longer career. Ticks all boxes if that's your thing but still had a merely decent career (by ATG standards). And I think his average flatters him a bit because he ghosted his team when his form dipped. Also, De Villiers just had some cameos against "quality bowling" for the most part. I think people pump him up on that metric like he was putting out Gooch v West Indies performances because it confirms their perception of his genius. Other than that, De Villiers best performances were mostly on roads or after the platform had been laid.

 

[BazBall21]

De Villiers to me is basically a #5 Anwar with a longer career. Ticks all boxes if that's your thing but still had a merely decent career (by ATG standards). And I think his average flatters him a bit because he ghosted his team when his form dipped.

Remember someone looking into this and sometimes he ghosted when he was in form. Skipping tests isn't a good thing no matter what form you're in (though I give Chappell more leeway than some) because you aren't much use to the team if you aren't there.

Edit: thanks for the gooch west indies shout-out. I've had a rough day. 2014 Australia and 2018 Australia, he did handle the quality high pace well. A hundred each to show for it. Blockathons on the subcontinent are nice for his resume as they're used as versatility in terms of tempo as well as conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

De Villiers to me is basically a #5 Anwar with a longer career. Ticks all boxes if that's your thing but still had a merely decent career (by ATG standards). And I think his average flatters him a bit because he ghosted his team when his form dipped. Also, De Villiers just had some cameos against "quality bowling" for the most part. I think people pump him up on that metric like he was putting out Gooch v West Indies performances because it confirms their perception of his genius. Other than that, De Villiers best performances were mostly on roads or after the platform had been laid.

Don't make things up just because you personally find it hard to rate ABD.

ABD has twice the career length of Anwar.

He ghosted his team in his prime and ended his career selfishly when he was in good form.

His 'cameos' were series returns against Johnson in 2009, 2014 and Cummins and co. in 2018. He was the best batsman in the India series in 2015 against Ashwin Jadeja on mambas.

The best performances on roads goes double for Dravid actually.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Didn’t AB abandon his team when he was in poor form?

 

[trundler]

Don't make things up just because you personally find it hard to rate ABD.

I don't find it hard to rate him at all. He's a firm ATVG for me.

ABD has twice the career length of Anwar.

Pakistan play fewer matches than SA in general and I literally said "with more matches".

He ghosted his team in his prime and ended his career selfishly when he was in good form.

Blatantly false.

His 'cameos' were series returns against Johnson in 2009, 2014 and Cummins and co. in 2018. He was the best batsman in the India series in 2015 against Ashwin Jadeja on mambas.

That 2015 series performances is very, very overrated. The pitches weren't "mambas" by and large. Blatantly false again. Basically every ATVG or better batsman has a resume like that. Lol at sneaking 2009 Johnson in there.

 

[BazBall21]

Think there were instances of when he was in good form and poor form

 

[subshakerz]

That 2015 series performances is very, very overrated. The pitches weren't "mambas" by and large. Blatantly false again. Basically every ATVG or better batsman has a resume like that.

You didn't watch that series? I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja ever looked more menacing.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

That 2015 series performances is very, very overrated. The pitches weren't "mambas" by and large. Blatantly false again. Basically every ATVG or better batsman has a resume like that. Lol at sneaking 2009 Johnson in there.

Were the 2015 SA vs Ind pitches like the 2021 Eng vs Ind pitches?

 

[subshakerz]

Were the 2015 SA vs Ind pitches like the 2021 Eng vs Ind pitches?

First three tests, the pitches were quite tough.

 

[trundler]

You didn't watch that series? I don't think Ashwin and Jadeja ever looked more menacing.

It was a good series performance but hardly ATG. Overrated. Just like the UAE series you brought up earlier but had the good sense to omit this time.

I am still not convinced that De Villiers's resume against tough bowling or whatever is exceptional by ATG standards. And the extent to which he statpadded is really being downplayed in this discussion.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

First three tests, the pitches were quite tough.

Yeah similar to 2021 against England

 

[subshakerz]

It was a good series performance but hardly ATG. Overrated. Just like the UAE series you brought up earlier but had the good sense to omit this time.

I am still not convinced that De Villiers's resume against tough bowling or whatever is exceptional by ATG standards. And the extent to which he statpadded is really being downplayed in this discussion.

Record doesn't have to be exceptional, but it is better than Dravid's which is the point of this discussion. I wouldnt back Dravid against surviving super fast bouncers or sharp worldclass spin. Lateral movement, yes.

But I do think the versatilty in ABDs skillset was exceptional.

 

[BazBall21]

It was a good series performance but hardly ATG. Overrated. Just like the UAE series you brought up earlier but had the good sense to omit this time.

I am still not convinced that De Villiers's resume against tough bowling or whatever is exceptional by ATG standards. And the extent to which he statpadded is really being downplayed in this discussion.

I didn't watch that series but the RPW suggests batting was really tough

 

[trundler]

It doesn't have to be exceptional, but it is better than Dravid's which is the point of this discussion

It's not. Looking technically flawless is a lot easier coming in at 5 behind a stacked lineup then it is at #3 which is pretty much the only thing De Villiers has going for him in this discussion.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

I didn't watch that series but the RPW suggests batting was really tough

It kinda was but SA bats apart from Amla and AB hardly put any resistance.

 

[subshakerz]

It's not. Looking technically flawless is a lot easier coming in at 5 behind a stacked lineup then it is at #3 which is pretty much the only thing De Villiers has going for him in this discussion.

He batted at 4 too, like in the last series against Australia I mentioned in 2018 and still scored, and in between as well in the other series. The other series also basically had him regularly come in early after the top order had been destroyed by Johnson or Ashwin.

Seems a stickler point to completely overlook his record.

 

[trundler]

Seems a stickler point to completely overlook his record.

Nobody's doing that. Just pointing out you're overrating it.