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Garry Sobers v Imran Khan,Test Cricket:Poll

Who was the better Test cricketer: Imran or Sobers?


  • Total voters
    169

Slifer

International Captain
Debatable.

In SL, Tendulkar has three great series and one failure. Lara only played one super series.

In Pakistan, Lara had one failed series and one great series albeit against a poor Pakistani attack, whereas Tendulkar started his career with a middling series and then had one great and one poor series against Shoaib in the 2000s.
I fail to see the issue. Lara averaged more in Pakistan and SL. Are you implying he'd have fallen off with more series in SL? Or that he'd have done worse with more matches vs Akhtar? And Lara never played in Bangladesh so there's that.
 

subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I fail to see the issue. Lara averaged more in Pakistan and SL. Are you implying he'd have fallen off with more series in SL? Or that he'd have done worse with more matches vs Akhtar? And Lara never played in Bangladesh so there's that.
Lara could have had a poor series against Murali earlier in his career and his record may not be as stellar. Lara definitely could have struggled potentially against Shoaib.

Tendulkar was just better tested overall in the SC.
 
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subshakerz

Hall of Fame Member
I'm honestly not following the ongoing argument, both of you have agreed that Sachin is better.
To be frank, I don't know what Slifer is arguing about either since he started on this. He thinks I consider Lara less than great when I have made it clear that is not the case.
 

BazBall21

International Captain
Even in Asia, Lara basically has that killer series in SL, a great series against a poor Pakistan attack in 2006 and two poor series in India and Pakistan in the 90s.

So I wouldn't call him equal in Asia either.
I meant in terms of ability rather than resume tbh. In terms of resume, Tendulkar probably wins just about everywhere except the Caribbean. I think he's clearly better but not miles better.
 

kyear2

International Coach
To be frank, I don't know what Slifer is arguing about either since he started on this. He thinks I consider Lara less than great when I have made it clear that is not the case.
Well you do have him later down the top 10 that some of us do, and in a lower tier.

Even then I don't see him lower than say 7th ish. 🤷🏾‍♂️
 

Slifer

International Captain
To be frank, I don't know what Slifer is arguing about either since he started on this. He thinks I consider Lara less than great when I have made it clear that is not the case.
No you started with the illogical argument implying that somehow Sachin was great but Lara wasn't because of some mid career slump. A slump everyone goes through. Then I simply elaborated on why that comment was bs. "Lara was missing something IMO. He just didn't give off the greatness vibes that Tendulkar did." You're yet to show me what Lara was missing and where he lacked in greatness. I used Sachin because that's who you compared him to.
 

Slifer

International Captain
Lara could have had a poor series against Murali earlier in his career and his record may not be as stellar. Lara definitely could have struggled potentially against Shoaib.

Tendulkar was just better tested overall in the SC.
Those aren't facts my friend. Facts remain Lara averaged significantly better there and therefore he was better.
 

Slifer

International Captain
My other issue with Subs' comments is that he makes these overarching comments and for the most part we accept them because why not. Case in point, Sachin was better in Australia or better vs Warne etc. In the odd occasion when Lara is implied to be better or even close to Sachin he chimes in with some caveat. For example, one might say Lara destroyed Murali in SL or McWarne in 99. Subs would respond with: oh but others destroyed Murali in SL too so that's not unique/special or Warne was returning from surgery in the 1999 series. He just did the same with the in Pakistan comparison: Lara had a great series there but the attack was poor. Just my observations but he just can't accept that maybe just maybe Lara had areas where he was better than Sachin.
 

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
None of this matters. Both are long retired and have nothing to do with Indian cricket or West Indies cricket. It's the 'present' that is real and that matters most and neither have anything to do with it. So **** these old player debates! Rather focus on what is happening now and what is real.
 

kyear2

International Coach
The dichotomy between Sobers and Imran is glaring. They are both all rounders at the very peak of what the sport has produced, but the differences between them couldn't be more stark.
One was the pinnacle of the bowling all rounder, ATG fast bowler while being a good lower order batsman and a captain of note.
The other one of the greatest batsmen ever, who was an over utilized but versatile and more than capable change bowler, who also happened to be one of the greatest slip and overall fielders of all time.

In a generic comparison between equally matched opponents in their primary skill, I would always lean bowler as I believe they are more important. Though ironically I rate lower order batting not as highly as most and at best on par with the other secondary skills in utility and practice.
I however believe that Sobers was slightly better and is more highly rated as a batsman than Imran is as a bowler. Sobers is a genuine top 3 candidate for best batsman after Bradman, while I and most don't quite rate Imran as a top candidate as the best bowler ever. Similarly Sobers walks into an ATG XI as a batsman alone, while Imran would struggle to do so based purely on his merits as a specialist bowler.

As far as their secondary skills go I feel like both are over played to a degree and both took advantage of captaincy to their benefit.

Though there were times that the bowling depth was so bad that Worrell had to open the bowling, it does appear that he was genuinely over bowled (or genuinely over bowled himself), seemingly more often that than not, as a stock bowler, sometimes bowling twice the amount of overs as the opening attack and to modest results, only 3 genuine match winning 5 wickets hauls with the ball.

There was an analysis earlier in the thread stating that Imran didn't have any match winning innings, which devolved into an argument about what constituted a match winning innings, with the argument being that match saving innings should be included. What I will say is that from his hundreds scored only one resulted in a win and it was an innings where there were 3 other hundreds scored.

What definitively separates the two for me is their tertiary skills.
I've said that I rate and value Sir Garry's slip catching higher than I do his bowling, and at most he should have been utilized similar to how Kallis was. His role in an ATG XI would be to bat, take everything at 2nd and bowl the occasional spell to rest the primary guys. To quote "he was in the league of Hammond and Simpson in the slips", can't get much better than that.
What makes a great captain is very subjective and there have been advocates and detractors in this thread. What I will say is that it can be broken down into 3 aspects. Win- loss record, great tactical ability and great leadership and the ability to encourage and unite a team. From most reports his strong point was the latter, and while it would have served Pakistan brilliantly it's harder to tangibly measure and potentially less transferable. He did manage to bring Pakistan together to challenge the greatest team of the era and assisted with the development of his fast bowling successors. His role in an ATG XI, which he easily makes for CW, would be that of first change bowler, utilizing his mastery of reverse swing, a no. 8 batsman and possibly an inspirational vice captain to the Don.

All in all, I believe that Sobers has a slight edge in primary skills, the're a wash with regards to the secondary, and with Sir Garry more definitively taking the tertiary skills and the overall contest in my humble opinion.
 
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The dichotomy between Sobers and Imran is glaring. They are both all rounders at the very peak of what the sport has produced, but the differences between them couldn't be more stark.
One was the pinnacle of the bowling all rounder, ATG fast bowler while being a good lower order batsman and a captain of note.
The other one of the greatest batsmen ever, who was an over utilized but versatile and more than capable change bowler, who also happened to be one of the greatest slip and overall fielders of all time.

In a generic comparison between equally matched opponents in their primary skill, I would always lean bowler as I believe they are more important. Though ironically I rate lower order batting not as highly as most and at best on par with the other secondary skills in utility and practice.
I however believe that Sobers was slightly better and is more highly rated as a batsman than Imran is as a bowler. Sobers is a genuine top 3 candidate for best batsman after Bradman, while I and most don't quite rate Imran as a top candidate as the best bowler ever. Similarly Sobers walks into an ATG XI as a batsman alone, while Imran would struggle to do so based purely on his merits as a specialist bowler.

As far as their secondary skills go I feel like both are over played to a degree and both took advantage of captaincy to their benefit.

Though there were times that the bowling depth was so bad that Worrell had to open the bowling, it does appear that he was genuinely over bowled (or genuinely over bowled himself), seemingly more often that than not, as a stock bowler, sometimes bowling twice the amount of overs as the opening attack and to modest results, only 3 genuine match winning 5 wickets hauls with the ball.

There was an analysis earlier in the thread stating that Imran didn't have any match winning innings, which devolved into an argument about what constituted a match winning innings, with the argument being that match saving innings should be included. What I will say is that from his hundreds scored only one resulted in a win and it was an innings where there were 3 other hundreds scored.

What definitively separates the two for me is their tertiary skills.
I've said that I rate and value Sir Garry's slip catching higher than I do his bowling, and at most he should have been utilized similar to how Kallis was. His role in an ATG XI would be to bat, take everything at 2nd and bowl the occasional spell to rest the primary guys. To quote "he was in the league of Hammond and Simpson at slip", can't get much better than that.
What makes a great captain is very subjective and there have been advocates and detractors in this thread. What I will say is that it can be broken down into 3 aspects. Win- loss record, great tactical ability and great leadership and the ability to encourage and unite a team. From most reports his strong point was the latter, and while it would have served Pakistan brilliantly it's harder to tangibly measure and potentially less transferable. He did manage to bring Pakistan together to challenge the greatest team of the era and assisted with the development of his fast bowling successors. His role in an ATG XI, which he easily makes for CW, would be that of first change bowler, utilizing his mastery of reverse swing, a no. 8 batsman and possibly an inspirational vice captain to the Don.

All in all, I believe that Sobers has a slight edge in primary skills, the're a wash with regards to the secondary, and with Sir Garry more definitively taking the tertiary skills and the overall contest in my humble opinion.
This some revisionist ****
 

Adorable Asshole

International Regular
None of this matters. Both are long retired and have nothing to do with Indian cricket or West Indies cricket. It's the 'present' that is real and that matters most and neither have anything to do with it. So **** these old player debates! Rather focus on what is happening now and what is real.
Your face don't matter
 

Prince EWS

Global Moderator
None of this matters. Both are long retired and have nothing to do with Indian cricket or West Indies cricket. It's the 'present' that is real and that matters most and neither have anything to do with it. So **** these old player debates! Rather focus on what is happening now and what is real.
Cricket itself doesn't actually matter. Not every thread here has to be for you. It definitely does what it says in the title so if you don't like it just don't ****ing open it.
 

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