Imran Khan vs Shane Warne (as bowlers)

[The Sean]

Hadlee's SR is actually (marginally) better than Lillee's, despite playing a higher proportion of his career on tougher tracks. If you normalised their careers with the SC involved to a reasonable extent, Hadlee would be striking significantly faster. Why is Lillee getting extra points for being 'attacking' If this is the case?

This reminds me of Ian Chappell's famous quote when comparing Lillee and McGrath that "Lillee did everything McGrath did, but two yards quicker."

DKL was certainly faster than Pidge, but considering during their careers McGrath took his wickets...

- more frequently
- more cheaply
- over a longer period of time
- against a greater variety of opponents
- under a wider range of conditions, and
- for a significant period of time in an era which was statistically far more favourable to batsmen

...then perhaps Lillee should have cut his pace by two yards.

 

[Bolo.]

This reminds me of Ian Chappell's famous quote when comparing Lillee and McGrath that "Lillee did everything McGrath did, but two yards quicker."

DKL was certainly faster than Pidge, but considering during their careers McGrath took his wickets...

- more frequently
- more cheaply
- over a longer period of time
- against a greater variety of opponents
- under a wider range of conditions, and
- for a significant period of time in an era which was statistically far more favourable to batsmen

...then perhaps Lillee should have cut his pace by two yards.

See Wasim vs Mcgrath as well

 

[BazBall21]

Yeah I see. The list was from 2009.

28 is the worst tbf.

Do you think it's best we don't show Trundler?

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Do you think it's best we don't show Trundler?

Or Coronis

 

[BazBall21]

Or Coronis

Coronis can at least focus on plenty of love for the old guard. Guys like Constantine, Shrewsbury, Gregory etc. Trundler can focus on Border and Miandad being effectively side by side.

 

[Slifer]

Marshall didn't play before WSC.

You are correct. He debuted for the WI 2nd XI while the main players were away playing WSC.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Coronis can at least focus on plenty of love for the old guard. Guys like Constantine, Shrewsbury, Gregory etc. Trundler can focus on Border and Miandad being effectively side by side.

Another interesting thing is Wasim and Waqar being 34 and 36 respectively. These days almost everybody consider Wasim to be much better than Waqar.

 

[trundler]

I don't think the criticism of Hadlee being less attacking is relevant anyway. You can't be as attacking if there's no pressure being built up at the other end. Your strike rate is also going to suffer if you're forced to bowl longer spells.

 

[BazBall21]

Another interesting thing is Wasim and Waqar being 34 and 36 respectively. These days almost everybody consider Wasim to be much better than Waqar.

Yeah CMJ loved bowlers who attacked the stumps a lot. Trueman at 22. Lindwall at 31. Waqar at 36. Makes me wonder if Steyn might have cracked at the top 20.

 

[kyear2]

As it connects to this thread, no idea how Warne is at 4, Marshall and McGrath should both be higher than him and in the top 10.
If it's test cricket hard to include Grace and no way Barnes is that high. Considering the English bias, thought Hutton would be higher.

 

[peterhrt]

Two points:

1. Hadlee had to do grunt overs. His attack was crap, and they needed him cutting back in a way that Marshall's didn't. Marshall's attack did not want him bowling at 80% for 40% more overs. Hadlee's did.

2. Hadlee's SR is actually (marginally) better than Lillee's, despite playing a higher proportion of his career on tougher tracks. If you normalised their careers with the SC involved to a reasonable extent, Hadlee would be striking significantly faster. Why is Lillee getting extra points for being 'attacking' If this is the case?

Agree with Point 1.

India was a happy hunting ground for fast bowlers during the 1970s and 1980s though Lillee never went there.

Batsmen facing Lillee said there was no let-up in aggression. That was what Martin-Jenkins was referring to. Whether that aggression was always effective is another matter.

It is sometimes forgotten that Lillee was highly rated in South Africa. He only played a couple of matches there in April 1976 for International Wanderers against a South African Invitation XI. Locals reckoned his 7 for 27 in the second innings of the first match (including Barry Richards for a duck) was the best fast bowling they had seen in the country.

 

[kyear2]

My top 10

Sobers
Bradman
Hobbs
Marshall
Tendulkar
McGrath
Richards
Warne
Gilchrist
Hutton / Hammond / Hadlee / Imran / Murali

Cheated on the 10th, but hey

 

[trundler]

My top 10

Sobers
Bradman
Hobbs
Marshall
Tendulkar
McGrath
Richards
Warne
Gilchrist
Hutton / Hammond / Hadlee / Imran

Cheated on the 20th, but hey

Imran > Sobers is a more defensible take than Imran barely scraping into the top 10.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

My top 10

Sobers
Bradman
Hobbs
Marshall
Tendulkar
McGrath
Richards
Warne
Gilchrist
Hutton / Hammond / Hadlee / Imran

Cheated on the 20th, but hey

If you are rating Sobers over Bradman the you should be rating Imran over Tendulkar and Hobbs.

 

[trundler]

If you are rating Sobers over Bradman the you should be rating Imran over Tendulkar and Hobbs.

Also there's Warne but no Murali.

 

[BazBall21]

As it connects to this thread, no idea how Warne is at 4, Marshall and McGrath should both be higher than him and in the top 10.
If it's test cricket hard to include Grace and no way Barnes is that high. Considering the English bias, thought Hutton would be higher.

As it connects to this thread, no idea how Warne is at 4, Marshall and McGrath should both be higher than him and in the top 10.
If it's test cricket hard to include Grace and no way Barnes is that high. Considering the English bias, thought Hutton would be higher.

English media adored Warne. It's not surprising. Agree with you though. Warne was a greater outlier relative to other teams, but Marshall and McGrath were more effective overall.
I think generally test cricket takes priority in CMJ's list but having read the book, he does give other forms of red-ball cricket plenty of attention and even has Sanath at 67 which is obviously a white-ball motivated selection.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Also there's Warne but no Murali.

I mean Warne is a better in other aspects of the game but again rating Warne over Imran as a better cricketer is just ehh.

 

[peterhrt]

As it connects to this thread, no idea how Warne is at 4, Marshall and McGrath should both be higher than him and in the top 10.
If it's test cricket hard to include Grace and no way Barnes is that high. Considering the English bias, thought Hutton would be higher.

Most English commentators always rated Warne above McGrath.

Martin-Jenkins wrote a history of county cricket and will certainly have taken it into account.

 

[BazBall21]

Most English commentators always rated Warne above McGrath.

Martin-Jenkins wrote a history of county cricket and will certainly have taken it into account.

Yeah and selections like Spofforth at 27 is clearly looking at wider impact on the sport as well as just test performance.

 

[kyear2]

Imran > Sobers is a more defensible take than Imran barely scraping into the top 10.

You do realize CMJ has Imran at 14, a vid I posted in the other thread had Ian Chappell and Procter both rate Imran the 4th of 5th best all rounder and both had Sobers 1st.

Why is it so hard for you to understand that everyone doesn't share you opinion. You're entitled to yours as I am to mine.

Sobers is arguably a top 2 batsman of all time with a floor of 4th.

A slip fielder of the class of Hammond and Simpson.

A front line bowler who could take advantage of a green or spinning track or could just shut down an end in a marathon spell.