Imran Khan vs Shane Warne (as bowlers)

[BazBall21]

I would prefer Marshall on a slow flat track to Hadlee and McGrath. Hadlee is scary good at out-thinking the batsman though.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

For the record I was asking for the objective reasons. For someone who is a fan of Hadlee, there must be tangible reasons as to why you rate Marshall even marginally higher.

Better stats overall. Better away stats and a more complete bowler plus faster. Marshall only had problem in NZ while Hadlee had in Pakistan and WI.

 

[BazBall21]

Marshall is bullet-proof against every opponent. Hadlee averages 28 v Pakistan.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Marshall is bullet-proof against every opponent. Hadlee averages 28 v Pakistan.

44

 

[BazBall21]

44

No tour of Pakistan in his prime scuppered his record there but I would still prefer Marshall in Pakistan. And Hadlee had an iffy series when Nzjaved Miandad flat tracks. Marshall saved the day against the same opponent in the same period. Albeit on livelier pitches.

 

[Bolo.]

For the record I was asking for the objective reasons. For someone who is a fan of Hadlee, there must be tangible reasons as to why you rate Marshall even marginally higher.

Slightly more rounded record. Slightly more of a weapon. Picked up a ton of wickets despite (possibly) the the most competition in history. Better SR. Marginally better average. Etc.

Plenty of reasons to prefer Marshall.

Plenty of reasons to prefer Hadlee as well, but you aren't asking for that.

 

[Slifer]

Afaic, Marshall and Hadlee are the perfect example of comparing two bowlers at roughly the same level but one was a lone wolf and the other part of a group.

Marshall unsurprisingly, has the better average and SR but Hadlee had the better wpm and higher tates of 5 and 10 fors.

 

[kyear2]

Yeah. Marshall is my goat but can make good cases for Hadlee and McGrath. Hadlee is probably the best cricketer of the three.

Hard to argue against them being seen as the big 3.
Marshall being the leader of the pack, his speed, control, swing, adaptability to any surface. He can go from express to bowling cutters with the ability to intimidate as few could with his skidding bouncer.

Hadlee for his ability to be a lone wolf and his consistency over all those years.

McGrath for his accuracy, his intensity, his dominance in an era of less helpful pitches, his longevity.

Extra credit goes to Maco and McGrath for being the driving forces behind the two greatest teams of all time.

 

[peterhrt]

I would prefer Marshall on a slow flat track to Hadlee and McGrath.

This was the reason English writers such as Christopher Martin-Jenkins rated Hadlee slightly behind Lillee and Marshall. They kept on attacking on docile surfaces while Hadlee cut his pace and waited for something to happen.

Martin-Jenkins reckoned Lillee and Marshall were the best fast bowlers during the second half of the twentieth century, followed by Hadlee. He saw plenty of all of them from the 1960s onwards.

 

[BazBall21]

This was the reason English writers such as Christopher Martin-Jenkins rated Hadlee slightly behind Lillee and Marshall. They kept on attacking on docile surfaces while Hadlee cut his pace and waited for something to happen.

Martin-Jenkins reckoned Lillee and Marshall were the best fast bowlers during the second half of the twentieth century, followed by Hadlee. He saw plenty of all of them.

In his top 100 cricketers of all time, he had Dennis Lillee 19th and Richard Hadlee 25th.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Maybe he just had a man-crush on Lillee like so many people in 70s and 80s.

 

[kyear2]

In his top 100 cricketers of all time, he had Dennis Lillee 19th and Richard Hadlee 25th.

Anyone has a complete list of the top 100 or even top 10?

 

[BazBall21]

Anyone has a complete list of the top 100 or even top 10?

I'll type it out now from memory, be prepared for some slight English bias...

1) Don Bradman
2) WG Grace
3) Garfield Sobers
4) Shane Warne
5) Jack Hobbs
6) Sachin Tendulkar
7) Sydney Barnes
8) Walter Hammond
9) Vivian Richards
10) Adam Gilchrist

11) Malcolm Marshall
12) Glenn McGrath
13) Muttiah Muralitharan
14) Imran Khan
15) Wilfred Rhodes
16) Keith Miller
17) Len Hutton
18) Ian Botham
19) Dennis Lillee
20) George Headley
21) Denis Compton
22) Fred Trueman
23) Bill O'Reilly
24) Brian Lara
25) Richard Hadlee
26) Sunil Gavaskar
27) Frederick Spofforth
28) Barry Richards
29) Alec Bedser
30) Victor Trumper
31) Ray Lindwall
32) Everton Weekes
33) Jim Laker
34) Wasim Akram
35) Kumar Singh Ranjithsingh
36) Waqar Younis
37) Graeme Pollock
38) Greg Chappell
39) Frank Worrell
40) Frank Woolley
41) Richie Benaud
42) Peter May
43) Herbert Sutcliffe
44) Graham Gooch
45) Clyde Walcott
46) Ken Barrington
47) Ricky Ponting
48) Kapil Dev
49) Harold Larwood
50) George Lohmann.
51) Curtly Ambrose
52) Jacques Kallis
53) Geoffrey Boycott
54) Clarrie Grimmett
55) Allan Border
56) Learie Constantine
57) Javed Miandad
58) Kumar Sangakkara
59) Hedley Verity
60) Kevin Pietersen
61) Arthur Shrewsbury
62) Bishen Bedi
63) Steve Waugh
64) Les Ames
65) Stanley McCabe
66) John Snow
67) Sanath Jayasuriya
68) Mike Proctor
69) Alan Knott
70) David Gower
71) Jack Gregory
72) Clive Lloyd
73) Martin Donnelly
74) Rahul Dravid
75) Ted Dexter
76) Andy Flower
77) Maurice Tate
78) Colin Cowdrey
79) Mahela Jayawardene
80) CB Fry
81) Bill Ponsford
82) Andrew Flintoff
83) Allan Donald
84) Gilbert Jessop
85) Michael Holding
86) Zaheer Abbas
87) Neil Harvey
88) Abdul Qadir
89) Brian Statham
90) Lance Gibbs
91) Ian Healy
92) Courtney Walsh
93) Graeme Smith
94) Virender Sehwag
95) Charlie Turner
96) Vijay Merchant
97) Shaun Pollock
98) Martin Crowe
99) Anil Kumble
100) Charles Macartney

This list was published in the summer of 2009.

 

[Bolo.]

This was the reason English writers such as Christopher Martin-Jenkins rated Hadlee slightly behind Lillee and Marshall. They kept on attacking on docile surfaces while Hadlee cut his pace and waited for something to happen.

Martin-Jenkins reckoned Lillee and Marshall were the best fast bowlers during the second half of the twentieth century, followed by Hadlee. He saw plenty of all of them from the 1960s onwards.

Two points:

1. Hadlee had to do grunt overs. His attack was crap, and they needed him cutting back in a way that Marshall's didn't. Marshall's attack did not want him bowling at 80% for 40% more overs. Hadlee's did.

2. Hadlee's SR is actually (marginally) better than Lillee's, despite playing a higher proportion of his career on tougher tracks. If you normalised their careers with the SC involved to a reasonable extent, Hadlee would be striking significantly faster. Why is Lillee getting extra points for being 'attacking' If this is the case?

 

[Adorable Asshole]

I'll type it out now from memory, be prepared for some slight English bias...

1) Don Bradman
2) WG Grace
3) Garfield Sobers
4) Shane Warne
5) Jack Hobbs
6) Sachin Tendulkar
7) Sydney Barnes
8) Walter Hammond
9) Vivian Richards
10) Adam Gilchrist

11) Malcolm Marshall
12) Glenn McGrath
13) Muttiah Muralitharan
14) Imran Khan
15) Wilfred Rhodes
16) Keith Miller
17) Len Hutton
18) Ian Botham
19) Dennis Lillee
20) George Headley
21) Denis Compton
22) Fred Trueman
23) Bill O'Reilly
24) Brian Lara
25) Richard Hadlee
26) Sunil Gavaskar
27) Frederick Spofforth
28) Barry Richards
29) Alec Bedser
30) Victor Trumper
31) Ray Lindwall
32) Everton Weekes
33) Jim Laker
34) Wasim Akram
35) Kumar Singh Ranjithsingh
36) Waqar Younis
37) Graeme Pollock
38) Greg Chappell
39) Frank Worrell
40) Frank Woolley
41) Richie Benaud
42) Peter May
43) Herbert Sutcliffe
44) Graham Gooch
45) Clyde Walcott
46) Ken Barrington
47) Ricky Ponting
48) Kapil Dev
49) Harold Larwood
50) George Lohmann.
51) Curtly Ambrose
52) Jacques Kallis
53) Geoffrey Boycott
54) Clarrie Grimmett
55) Allan Border
56) Learie Constantine
57) Javed Miandad
58) Kumar Sangakkara
59) Hedley Verity
60) Kevin Pietersen
61) Arthur Shrewsbury
62) Bishen Bedi
63) Steve Waugh
64) Les Ames
65) Stanley McCabe
66) John Snow
67) Sanath Jayasuriya
68) Mike Proctor
69) Alan Knott
70) David Gower
71) Jack Gregory
72) Clive Lloyd
73) Martin Donnelly
74) Rahul Dravid
75) Ted Dexter
76) Andy Flower
77) Maurice Tate
78) Colin Cowdrey
79) Mahela Jayawardene
80) CB Fry
81) Bill Ponsford
82) Andrew Flintoff
83) Allan Donald
84) Gilbert Jessop
85) Michael Holding
86) Zaheer Abbas
87) Neil Harvey
88) Abdul Qadir
89) Brian Statham
90) Lance Gibbs
91) Ian Healy
92) Courtney Walsh
93) Graeme Smith
94) Virender Sehwag
95) Charlie Turner
96) Vijay Merchant
97) Shaun Pollock
98) Martin Crowe
99) Anil Kumble
100) Charles Macartney

This list was published in the summer of 2009.

Imran 14 and Botham 18?

Plus why is Sangakara 58 and Gilchrist at 10?

 

[The Sean]

Why are we doing this chopping up career stuff again? Why not ignore Marshall's pre wsc stats as well?

Marshall didn't play before WSC.

 

[BazBall21]

Imran 14 and Botham 18?

Plus why is Sangakara 58 and Gilchrist at 10?

There will naturally be some giant omissions but they only get bigger when you see who's at #82 and #91...

 

[Adorable Asshole]

There will naturally be some giant omissions but they only get bigger when you see who's at #82 and #91...

Ian Healy can be accepted given that he's arguably the greatest keeper of all time but including Flintoff is just asinine.

What even more asinine is 28. If you wanted to include him maybe do it at 90 but putting him over Kallis is just idk wrong.

 

[BazBall21]

Ian Healy can be accepted given that he's arguably the greatest keeper of all time but including Flintoff is just asinine.

Haha. Flintoff over Donald, Holding, Pollock etc is bants. To be fair, Sanga at 58 at the time was pretty fair. Nine year career and his away record was only just starting to mature.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Haha. Flintoff over Donald, Holding, Pollock etc is bants. To be fair, Sanga at 58 at the time was pretty fair. Nine year career and his away record was only just starting to mature.

Yeah I see. The list was from 2009.

28 is the worst tbf.