Hammond vs Kallis

[kyear2]

Because when you focus on one position people will think differently.

Someone should start a thread then.

The obvious options would be Imran, Hadlee, Marshall, Wasim?

 

[OverratedSanity]

Yup. Imran to me is the greatest exponent of reverse swing ever and hence edges Steyn on bowling alone for me as third seamer, regardless of the debate on their overall standing.

Steyn as a new ball bowled will be overshadowed by McGrath, Marshall and Hadlee.

Steyn isn't far behind Imran as a reverse swing bowler imo. He just had fewer chances to show it but he bowled several of the deadliest spells of old ball reverse swing I've ever seen.

 

[subshakerz]

Steyn isn't far behind Imran as a reverse swing bowler imo. He just had fewer chances to show it but he bowled several of the deadliest spells of old ball reverse swing I've ever seen.

Yup I agree. Steyn had some great reverse swing spells, none better than Kanpur 2010. It is just that Imran's natural inswinger and the level of swing he achieved with reverse made him a bit extra deadly.

 

[Bolo.]

Yup I agree. Steyn had some great reverse swing spells, none better than Kanpur 2010. It is just that Imran's natural inswinger and the level of swing he achieved with reverse made him a bit extra deadly.

Do you think moving the ball more helps with reverse? It starts moving earlier, and makes it easier for quality bats to predict the trajectory.

 

[subshakerz]

Do you think moving the ball more helps with reverse? It starts moving earlier, and makes it easier for quality bats to predict the trajectory.

No, with Imran, it was sharp late movement and in-dipping.

 

[Bolo.]

No, with Imran, it was sharp late movement and in-dipping.

The sharp late movement applies more to Steyn, yes? Faster, fuller, and skiddier typically makes for later movement, and what I have seen of Imran, the ball starts moving noticeably earlier.

Possibly a moot point though if there are times when Steyn wouldn't be getting enough swing to count, but Imran would.

 

[subshakerz]

The sharp late movement applies more to Steyn, yes? Faster, fuller, and skiddier typically makes for later movement, and what I have seen of Imran, the ball starts moving noticeably earlier.

Possibly a moot point though if there are times when Steyn wouldn't be getting enough swing to count, but Imran would.

The sharp later was more Imran.

Steyn's reverse was a skidding snake delivery, since he had a natural outswinging, it would start seeming heading straight or outside off and then curve mid way and become a regular inswinger and batsmen would be stuck midstroke playing for off and not anticipating the movement. Think bowling Brad Hadden twice in 2013.

Imran reverse was more of a booming variety, it would start as a conventional inswinger but then dip lately and sharply move from off to leg or outside off to middle, usually more full. Very difficult for new batsmen to play and often split heeling them.

 

[Coronis]

But why? Imran is literally there as an option, and the same amount of persons chose Marshall, Warne, Steyn, McGrath so obviously it's not a priority for everyone to have a specialist no. 8. Again, not saying it wouldn't have it's benefits, but not everyone prefers it

Well if you have Marshall and Warne you’ve already got two specialist no. 8’s

 

[subshakerz]

Well if you have Marshall and Warne you’ve already got two specialist no. 8’s

Neither alone is good enough at 8 IMO assuming you have three tailenders following averaging single digits after that.

 

[shortpitched713]

If you don't have a good WK batsman you probably need your fourth bowler to bat 7, in which case they need to bowl more.

Wtf am I reading? What does the batting position of the 4th in quality bowler have to do with how much he needs to bowl? Are we just assuming he's going to perform worse or be more tired because he has a very slightly higher batting load per match? If so, color me confused.

 

[shortpitched713]

Acknowledged and agreed.

The attached isn't definitive by any means, but shows not everyone chooses either at 8.
View attachment 37003

The thread and poll was for "best attack". You didn't ask for "best bottom 4", which is a subtle but meaningful difference.

 

[Coronis]

Neither alone is good enough at 8 IMO assuming you have three tailenders following averaging single digits after that.

lol it was mostly tongue in cheek since both played the majority of their careers at the 8 spot.

Assuming you have both in your team (which the majority of XI’s I’ve seen here do) thats more than enough batting for your tail imo - its just fortunate that two of the greatest (if not the greatest) bowlers of pace/spin also happened to be capable bats.

 

[subshakerz]

lol it was mostly tongue in cheek since both played the majority of their careers at the 8 spot.

Assuming you have both in your team (which the majority of XI’s I’ve seen here do) thats more than enough batting for your tail imo - its just fortunate that two of the greatest (if not the greatest) bowlers of pace/spin also happened to be capable bats.

Not if you are playing another ATG XI, then you need an amped up tail.

 

[kyear2]

lol it was mostly tongue in cheek since both played the majority of their careers at the 8 spot.

Assuming you have both in your team (which the majority of XI’s I’ve seen here do) thats more than enough batting for your tail imo - its just fortunate that two of the greatest (if not the greatest) bowlers of pace/spin also happened to be capable bats.

Exactly

 

[kyear2]

Not if you are playing another ATG XI, then you need an amped up tail.

Again you're confusing your preference with a consensus.
I personally believe that Maco and Warne are good enough at 8 and 9, but also acknowledge that like you a plurality may prefer Imran or Hadlee in that spot. My guess is probably a 60 / 40 split but by no means a lock.

In CW we have this fixation with the term all rounder and have arbitrary numbers to establish players into this categories. But Marshall and Warne could both bat, quite capably actually, and I've seen both of them do so. Hammond may not have hit the arbitrary wpm total but was an excellent 5th bowler, sure Simpson could fill that role as well. Hell, as I've said to great push back before, Ponting, Chappell among some of the ATG bats can be seen as same.
For me it's more about being able to fill a role that a standard and as a result a lot of good all round cricketers are somewhat discredited

 

[subshakerz]

Again you're confusing your preference with a consensus.
I personally believe that Maco and Warne are good enough at 8 and 9, but also acknowledge that like you a plurality may prefer Imran or Hadlee in that spot. My guess is probably a 60 / 40 split but by no means a lock.

In CW we have this fixation with the term all rounder and have arbitrary numbers to establish players into this categories. But Marshall and Warne could both bat, quite capably actually, and I've seen both of them do so. Hammond may not have hit the arbitrary wpm total but was an excellent 5th bowler, sure Simpson could fill that role as well. Hell, as I've said to great push back before, Ponting, Chappell among some of the ATG bats can be seen as same.
For me it's more about being able to fill a role that a standard and as a result a lot of good all round cricketers are somewhat discredited

All-rounder to me means someone who can regularly bat in the top seven and is one of five regular bowlers.

Marshall and Warne are useful bats but a lot of their runs are downhill skiing towards the end of an innings of a super strong batting lineup and tired bowlers rather than serious knocks under normal batting pressure. Guarantee you that if they came up the order, their averages would drop like rocks.

There is a gulf between them and a proper lower order bat like Imran or even Hadlee who built their averages while actually being depended on for scoring.

 

[kyear2]

All-rounder to me means someone who can regularly bat in the top seven and is one of five regular bowlers.

Marshall and Warne are useful bats but a lot of their runs are downhill skiing towards the end of an innings of a super strong batting lineup and tired bowlers rather than serious knocks under normal batting pressure. Guarantee you that if they came up the order, their averages would drop like rocks.

There is a gulf between them and a proper lower order bat like Imran or even Hadlee who built their averages while actually being depended on for scoring.

That's a serious generalization. Both have batted innings where they were needed either to win or hang onto for a draw. Marshall has a famous example in '84 with a broken arm.
In fact the exact opposite was true, when we had a lead or big score MM would often give it a go and get back into the shed.

And why would I want them to bat higher up the order, they're the bowlers. And yes, there is a gulf between them and Imran and Hadlee but as I've said, not sure if I need it. It's a preference.

And not starting an Imran thing, and going by memory and between emails right now, but if I do recall correctly at least 4 of Imran's 6 hundreds came in innings where there was at least one or two other hundreds scored and was just as you phrased it "down hill skiing at the end of an innings" or even piling on.
Again, Imran was a considerably better batsman than most, not even questioning that.

 

[Coronis]

All-rounder to me means someone who can regularly bat in the top seven and is one of five regular bowlers.

Marshall and Warne are useful bats but a lot of their runs are downhill skiing towards the end of an innings of a super strong batting lineup and tired bowlers rather than serious knocks under normal batting pressure. Guarantee you that if they came up the order, their averages would drop like rocks.

There is a gulf between them and a proper lower order bat like Imran or even Hadlee who built their averages while actually being depended on for scoring.

Nobody called them all rounders lol.

This #batdeep **** is getting ridiculous.

Hell Cummins batted us to an Ashes win and he isn’t as good a bat as either of them. You don’t need allrounders batting at 8 or below. You need the best bowlers available.

 

[shortpitched713]

Nobody called them all rounders lol.

This #batdeep **** is getting ridiculous.

Hell Cummins batted us to an Ashes win and he isn’t as good a bat as either of them. You don’t need allrounders batting at 8 or below. You need the best bowlers available.

9 and below, I agree. 8 I think you really, really want one.

 

[kyear2]

Surprisingly Marshall and Warne both got a mention there at the end