What would Ashwin and Jadeja's records look like if they debuted a decade earlier?

[Xix2565]

Why don't you share some rather than all this whinging.

You could actually address my questions first though? I'm asking for a proper argument to read first.

 

[subshakerz]

You could actually address my questions first though? I'm asking for a proper argument to read first.

If nothing on this forum qualifies as an argument for you, maybe you should check a philosophy forum.

 

[Socerer 01]

I gave you evidence in the first post. Look at the terrific hauls foreign spinners were getting in this last decade, several of them very average spinners.

- Lyon 19 wickets@25 and 22 wickets @22
- Tahir 14 wickets @21
- Harmer 10 wickets@25
- O Keefe 19 wickets @23
- Leach 18 wickets @28
- Murphy 14 wickets @25
- Patel 17 wickets @22

Was there anything comparable by foreign spinners in the 90s? Perhaps only Saqlain in 99. Murali and Warne were murdered in India that decade.

Warne and Murali were murdered because those batsmen were excellent players of spin and not like the current players who have gotten progressively worse with time

and why do you only selectively choose players for your checklist analysis? Maharaj got destroyed for an 85 average in his tour here, Herath went for 115 average in 2017, Mehidy averages 107 from 2 series

coming to even average and below average spinners, Somerville’s career ended in India because he didn’t pick up 1 wicket, Rashid averages 37, Ali 48, Embuldeniya 46, Bess 39, Bishop 68, Warrican 55, Taijul 96, Santner 52. Rashid Khan averages 31. if pitches were always in their favour that it boosts your average spinners why did Mishra and Nadeem struggle against England and not have the type of success or impact that Ashwin and Jadeja did? its also very convenient that you include a couple of names that are termed bad and then include actually good spinners so that you can collectively brand them as average spinners

 

[Nintendo]

You'd expect their averages to rise a bit, be interesting to see how Jadeja goes in a pre-DRS era. Ashwin is smart enough to figure out ways to get wickets without it, but jadeja's method seems pretty reliant on post DRS LBW's a lot more. Also be interesting to see how Jadeja goes in general. He's averaged 43.5 since the start of 2017 (when facing pace got a ton harder and around the time india started making their home decks spicier). I could honestly see jadeja ending up with more aubrey Faulkner style 40/30 numbers if he played his entire career in the 2000-2016 era.

 

[Xix2565]

If nothing on this forum qualifies as an argument for you, maybe you should check a philosophy forum.

You could do the same yourself instead of making inane threads to try to justify your feelings.

 

[Socerer 01]

You'd expect their averages to rise a bit, be interesting to see how Jadeja goes in a pre-DRS era. Ashwin is smart enough to figure out ways to get wickets without it, but jadeja's method seems pretty reliant on post DRS LBW's a lot more. Also be interesting to see how Jadeja goes in general. He's averaged 43.5 since the start of 2017 (when facing pace got a ton harder and around the time india started making their home decks spicier). I could honestly see jadeja ending up with more aubrey Faulkner style 40/30 numbers if he played his entire career in the 2000-2016 era.

Jadeja’s batting was wasted for years by the Indian team not focusing on the batting side of his talent

 

[subshakerz]

Warne and Murali were murdered because those batsmen were excellent players of spin and not like the current players who have gotten progressively worse with time

and why do you only selectively choose players for your checklist analysis? Maharaj got destroyed for an 85 average in his tour here, Herath went for 115 average in 2017, Mehidy averages 107 from 2 series

coming to even average and below average spinners, Somerville’s career ended in India because he didn’t pick up 1 wicket, Rashid averages 37, Ali 48, Embuldeniya 46, Bess 39, Bishop 68, Warrican 55, Taijul 96, Santner 52. Rashid Khan averages 31. if pitches were always in their favour that it boosts your average spinners why did Mishra and Nadeem struggle against England and not have the type of success or impact that Ashwin and Jadeja did? its also very convenient that you include a couple of names that are termed bad and then include actually good spinners so that you can collectively brand them as average spinners

Respectfully I think you may be missing the point. We are analyzing an entire decade so of course there will be series in between that are more batting friendly or where outside spinners got collared, like against England in 2016/17. But generally, there was a higher percentage of spicy wickets than other decades, as shown by so many average to medium level foreign spinners also enjoying good returns.

Nobody doubts that the 90s Indian batters were better at playing spin, but the gulf is not that vast that Kohlis team suddenly found spinners like Tahir or Patel skillful enough to challenge them when Warne and Murali were demolished before.

The real issue is pitch quality. In the past decade, we commonly see pitches that are turning from Day 1. Whereas in the 90s, Indian pitches generally were solidly good for batting on Day 1 and 2, and began to break up Day 3 onwards and became difficult to play spinners. Sporting wickets but not mambas of late.

 

[Socerer 01]

Respectfully I think you may be missing the point. We are analyzing an entire decade so of course there will be series in between that are more batting friendly or where outside spinners got collared, like against England in 2016/17. But generally, there was a higher percentage of spicy wickets than other decades, as shown by so many average to medium level foreign spinners also enjoying good returns.

Nobody doubts that the 90s Indian batters were better at playing spin, but the gulf is not that vast that Kohlis team suddenly found spinners like Tahir or Patel skillful enough to challenge them when Warne and Murali were demolished before.

The real issue is pitch quality. In the past decade, we commonly see pitches that are turning from Day 1. Whereas in the 90s, Indian pitches generally were solidly good for batting on Day 1 and 2, and began to break up Day 3 onwards and became difficult to play spinners. Sporting wickets but not mambas of late.

im obviously missing the point because your point is an utterly agenda driven one in this case as shown by you on multiple instances when it comes to discussing Ashwin and Jadeja

i have pointed out multiple spinners who havent found success not just from one series. in these same series Jadeja and Ashwin have almost always averaged between 25 to 30. sometimes their fellow spinners haven’t done the same too with only Axar and Kuldeep ranking as equals. you choose to ignore them as one offs yet keep bringing up Tahir’s one series as the norm

and coming back to Tahir you can’t keep using his name as a gateway pass to bring in every spinner who was good in India and brandish them as mediocre or average. Ajaz is a good enough spinner who had a county season averaging close to 30, he is a victim of mismanagement by NZ cricket team. even looking into his performances here he did nothing significant in Kanpur when his team famously drew where as Ashwin Jadeja and Axar all did something noteworthy and feasted largely in Wankhede with that 10fer which boosts his record

 

[Nintendo]

im obviously missing the point because your point is an utterly agenda driven one in this case as shown by you on multiple instances when it comes to discussing Ashwin and Jadeja

i have pointed out multiple spinners who havent found success not just from one series. in these same series Jadeja and Ashwin have almost always averaged between 25 to 30. sometimes their fellow spinners haven’t done the same too with only Axar and Kuldeep ranking as equals. you choose to ignore them as one offs yet keep bringing up Tahir’s one series as the norm

and coming back to Tahir you can’t keep using his name as a gateway pass to bring in every spinner who was good in India and brandish them as mediocre or average. Ajaz is a good enough spinner who had a county season averaging close to 30, he is a victim of mismanagement by NZ cricket team. even looking into his performances here he did nothing significant in Kanpur when his team famously drew where as Ashwin Jadeja and Axar all did something noteworthy and feasted largely in Wankhede with that 10fer which boosts his record

India have been producing more spin-friendly home decks recently than they did 10 years ago. I don't think that's a highly debated point, is it? FYI: Not using that to take away from Ashwin and jadeja. They've shown more than enough times that even when it's a road they can take wickets.

 

[Socerer 01]

India have been producing more spin-friendly home decks recently than they did 10 years ago. I don't think that's a highly debated point, is it?

that isnt my point of contention at all as its been the case for pitches all over the world to have become more bowler friendly

the problem i have is with subs opinion that Ashwin and Jadeja are only good on these hugely tilted towards spin pitches when they’ve been more than good on pitches that were batting friendly too, sometimes even worse than 2000s where other spinners have been beyond useless, sometimes even good spinners. he chooses to conveniently ignore that while bringing up only matches or series where the pitches were very spicy like Tahir who he keeps using in every argument to bring in other decent spinners and call them as average or mediocre

 

[Daemon]

India have been producing more spin-friendly home decks recently than they did 10 years ago. I don't think that's a highly debated point, is it? FYI: Not using that to take away from Ashwin and jadeja. They've shown more than enough times that even when it's a road they can take wickets.

That’s not up for debate. It’s the extent to which it impacts their average that is. I think the point is that Subs’ analysis was very one-sided. He picked the best performances by away spinners, ignored the rest, and did not compare Ashwin/Jadeja’s performances in the same series.

He’s flogging a dead horse wrt the pitches. Everyone knows they’ve been spin friendly.

 

[subshakerz]

im obviously missing the point because your point is an utterly agenda driven one in this case as shown by you on multiple instances when it comes to discussing Ashwin and Jadeja

No agenda, just highlighting a sincere difference which makes it more interesting on CW.

i have pointed out multiple spinners who havent found success not just from one series. in these same series Jadeja and Ashwin have almost always averaged between 25 to 30. sometimes their fellow spinners haven’t done the same too with only Axar and Kuldeep ranking as equals. you choose to ignore them as one offs yet keep bringing up Tahir’s one series as the norm

I think that proves my point. On the few batting friendly series both Ashwin and Jadeja see their averages rise. No doubt they are better than the opposition in these conditions but rely on pitches for their more cheaper mass hauls. Nobody is questioning they are excellent here, but whether spicier pitches makes them look better than they are.

and coming back to Tahir you can’t keep using his name as a gateway pass to bring in every spinner who was good in India and brandish them as mediocre or average. Ajaz is a good enough spinner who had a county season averaging close to 30, he is a victim of mismanagement by NZ cricket team. even looking into his performances here he did nothing significant in Kanpur when his team famously drew where as Ashwin Jadeja and Axar all did something noteworthy and feasted largely in Wankhede with that 10fer which boosts his record

You can nitpick but I gave several other examples aside from Tahir and Patel too who in the end ended up with good figures. The point is there are a host of away spinners with impressive series hauls in the 2010s and not the 90s, despite the latter also having Murali and Warne. Why not just admit that pitches helped them more and we can agree and move on?

 

[subshakerz]

That’s not up for debate. It’s the extent to which it impacts their average that is. I think the point is that Subs’ analysis was very one-sided. He picked the best performances by away spinners, ignored the rest, and did not compare Ashwin/Jadeja’s performances in the same series.

He’s flogging a dead horse wrt the pitches. Everyone knows they’ve been spin friendly.

My friend, everyone knows about the pitches yet there are a host of posters here who don't want to apply an analysis of what extent they benefitted from them. Many take their home figures at face value in case you missed them and rate them ahead of Kumble and prior spinners. Hence the point of the thread.

Is it really controversial if I say that 23 to 25 would be a more fairly reflective average for Ashwin and Jadeja if they didn't have extra pitch assistance?

Also, am I cherry picking these best away spinners performances? If so, please show me a previous decade that you can find a similar sample. If not, then my point stands that the conditions were a historical aberration.

he chooses to conveniently ignore that while bringing up only matches or series where the pitches were very spicy like Tahir who he keeps using in every argument to bring in other decent spinners and call them as average or mediocre

Please do the same 'cherrypicking' with other decades and see if you can find similar results.

 

[Daemon]

Many take their home figures at face value in case you missed them and rate them ahead of Kumble and prior spinners.

The two don’t come hand in hand. Many don’t take their figures at face value yet rate them ahead of Kumble.

 

[subshakerz]

The two don’t come hand in hand. Many don’t take their figures at face value yet rate them ahead of Kumble.

Great so let's discuss what extent it was pitch assistance vs skill. I don't mind those who say it is close to tell who is better at home.

 

[Xix2565]

This dogshit analysis from Subs never seems to pop up when it comes to rating other bowlers playing in bowling friendly conditions that favour their style of bowling for a substantial part of their careers. I wonder exactly why this is the case...

 

[subshakerz]

This dog**** analysis from Subs never seems to pop up when it comes to rating other bowlers playing in bowling friendly conditions that favour their style of bowling for a substantial part of their careers. I wonder exactly why this is the case...

Philander.

 

[Socerer 01]

No agenda, just highlighting a sincere difference which makes it more interesting on CW.


I think that proves my point. On the few batting friendly series both Ashwin and Jadeja see their averages rise. No doubt they are better than the opposition in these conditions but rely on pitches for their more cheaper mass hauls. Nobody is questioning they are excellent here, but whether spicier pitches makes them look better than they are.


You can nitpick but I gave several other examples aside from Tahir and Patel too who in the end ended up with good figures. The point is there are a host of away spinners with impressive series hauls in the 2010s and not the 90s, despite the latter also having Murali and Warne. Why not just admit that pitches helped them more and we can agree and move on?

this is false though? just look at the same series you pointed out as 1 anomaly in 2016 when England toured, Jadeja took a 7fer in Chennai, Ashwin took 2 6fers in Wankhede and a 5fer in Vizag. Ashwin also took a 7fer in Vizag against South Africa in 2019. Ashwin took a 6fer in Kanpur in 2016 when New Zealand toured, Jadeja took a 5fer in the same match on a standard pitch. Jadeja took a 5fer in Mohali against Sri Lanka last year. Ashwin in the 1st test in Chennai took a 6fer just before the pitch completely broke down. all of this just includes 5 wickets and above, they took a lot of 3 or 4 wicket hauls too that were very impactful in several series that weren’t as spin friendly as you unilaterally apply. in these same series most of the opponent spinners were much worse by an order of magnitude that you fail to incorporate because it runs counter to your argument

the other egs you gave are all decent to good spinners ffs, thats the point ive been saying all along. the 90s batsmen were all much much better players of spin and other than Warne and Murali which touring spinner was really good? Vettori was only 2 years into test cricket when he toured in 99. even beyond that Adams and Mushtaq both had good tours in the 90s, Boje won a game for his team in 2000. Hick had one good game that boosts his series average to satisfy your checklisting. im not even sure what the point is here, are Latham and Warner suddenly great openers because everyone else in late 2010s sucked and they sucked the least? because the point you‘re making is that since nobody in the 90s bowled spin well in India then that elevates Kumble to a superior position which may not be the case especially when you have Indian fans who watched both well enough arguing the contrary

 

[subshakerz]

this is false though? just look at the same series you pointed out as 1 anomaly in 2016 when England toured, Jadeja took a 7fer in Chennai, Ashwin took 2 6fers in Wankhede and a 5fer in Vizag. Ashwin also took a 7fer in Vizag against South Africa in 2019. Ashwin took a 6fer in Kanpur in 2016 when New Zealand toured, Jadeja took a 5fer in the same match on a standard pitch. Jadeja took a 5fer in Mohali against Sri Lanka last year. Ashwin in the 1st test in Chennai took a 6fer just before the pitch completely broke down. all of this just includes 5 wickets and above, they took a lot of 3 or 4 wicket hauls too that were very impactful in several series that weren’t as spin friendly as you unilaterally apply. in these same series most of the opponent spinners were much worse by an order of magnitude that you fail to incorporate because it runs counter to your argument

I have already conceded that Ashwin and Jadeja are still more effective than away spinners in home conditions outside of even the spicier pitches, albeit at notably higher averages, which is my point. The higher percentage of spicier wickets in the same era gives them a lower than reflective average. How can you disagree with that?

the other egs you gave are all decent to good spinners ffs, thats the point ive been saying all along. the 90s batsmen were all much much better players of spin and other than Warne and Murali which touring spinner was really good? Vettori was only 2 years into test cricket when he toured in 99. even beyond that Adams and Mushtaq both had good tours in the 90s, Boje won a game for his team in 2000. Hick had one good game that boosts his series average to satisfy your checklisting. im not even sure what the point is here, are Latham and Warner suddenly great openers because everyone else in late 2010s sucked and they sucked the least? because the point you‘re making is that since nobody in the 90s bowled spin well in India then that elevates Kumble to a superior position which may not be the case especially when you have Indian fans who watched both well enough arguing the contrary

The point is that away spinners in the 2010s also got juiced figures thanks to the pitches.

A gave you a slew of examples of away spinners having double-digit series hauls in India in the 2010s at a cheap rate.

The nineties basically has only two such cases. You suggest it is just because Indians played better then, I say it is more to do with pitches, which should be obvious considering the pitches Harmer & Tahir played in 2015, O'Keefe played in 2017, Murphy played in 2023, where Patel got his ten-fer in 2021, etc.

Higher number of spicier pitches in this era = lower than usual averages for Ashwin and Jadeja, which is further proven by the higher number of foreign spinners taking more wickets at lower averages on those pitches in question. It is really quite a straightforward point, not sure why you want to contest it.

 

[Xix2565]

Philander.

So just one example, just like what you're accusing others arguing with you of here. Still can't make an argument to save your life.