What would Ashwin and Jadeja's records look like if they debuted a decade earlier?

[Migara]

Put Kumble on a pitch with variable turn and bounce as once india served in last few years, if I were a batsman, I don't wanna face him. There is threat of dismissal as well as threat of physical harm. kumble at his pomp delivered his flippers around 120 clicks. One of those sticking in the pitch and coming towards the face is not very enjoyable.

 

[subshakerz]

Kumble achieved more outside India but he had a lot more oppertunity. Kumble toured England four times and on three of those he got a full series. Ashwin's average in England is a fair whack better than Kumble's (28 vs 41) but Ashwin has played less than half of India's tests here since 2014. I'm inclined to think Ashwin's overseas record would look a bit richer that it is if he were trusted as much as Kumble was.

I agree. There was no reason for Indian management not to play Ashwin this last series.

 

[Xix2565]

I did. You just don't like responding to them.

No, you've made stupid assumptions and decided to pretend that they're arguments. Actually make one that is actually backed up by more than petty agendas and we can talk.

 

[subshakerz]

No, you've made stupid assumptions and decided to pretend that they're arguments. Actually make one that is actually backed up by more than petty agendas and we can talk.

Do you rate Jadeja better than Kumble?

 

[Xix2565]

Do you rate Jadeja better than Kumble?

As a player, definitely. As a bowler, no, though I don't think the gap is as big as some here believe anyway between the 3 of Ashwin/Jadeja/Kumble.

 

[ma1978]

Ashwin blunted Australia’s biggest weapon in the BGS . His bowling against Steve Smith was the most consequential performance by any Indian spinner ever. That alone puts him ahead.

I’ve also yet to see evidence that pitches in India are more doctored than they have been in Kimble’s time (remember the 1990s). India’s bowlers and that includes the pacers are more skilful at exploiting the conditions.

 

[CricAddict]

Ashwin blunted Australia’s biggest weapon in the BGS . His bowling against Steve Smith was the most consequential performance by any Indian spinner ever. That alone puts him ahead.

I’ve also yet to see evidence that pitches in India are more doctored than they have been in Kimble’s time (remember the 1990s). India’s bowlers and that includes the pacers are more skilful at exploiting the conditions.

Yes, I agree with your point on the pitches. That Ashwin's pitches are more doctored than Kumble's is false and overrated. One point in favor of Ashwin and Jadeja now is DRS and that with the advent of t20s, batsmen adept at playing the long game have reduced now. Otherwise, pitches have always been supportive of spin in India.

 

[subshakerz]

I’ve also yet to see evidence that pitches in India are more doctored than they have been in Kimble’s time (remember the 1990s). India’s bowlers and that includes the pacers are more skilful at exploiting the conditions.

I gave you evidence in the first post. Look at the terrific hauls foreign spinners were getting in this last decade, several of them very average spinners.

- Lyon 19 wickets@25 and 22 wickets @22
- Tahir 14 wickets @21
- Harmer 10 wickets@25
- O Keefe 19 wickets @23
- Leach 18 wickets @28
- Murphy 14 wickets @25
- Patel 17 wickets @22

Was there anything comparable by foreign spinners in the 90s? Perhaps only Saqlain in 99. Murali and Warne were murdered in India that decade.

 

[ZK$]

In the 90s, Kumble averaged 21.35 at home and 38.21 away from home.

 

[Prince EWS]

In the 90s, Kumble averaged 21.35 at home and 38.21 away from home.

And if, like Jadeja, he was selected and used in such a way as to allow him to take 70.5% of his wickets at home with that split, his average would've been 26 in the 90s.

The home pitches in the 2000s before he retired were not anywhere near as consistently favourable. Some of them were proper turners, yes, but not near as often as what happens now.

 

[The_CricketUmpire]

Rating Ashwin over Kumble based on home performance is silly.

I have zero doubt that if Kumble had the same pitches as Ashwin did this last decade, he would have a home record to match or exceed his. Even in the 90s, when pitches were more supportive but not as spicy as they have been in the last decade, Kumble averaged 21 at home. And he didn't have a spin twin of Jadeja's quality at the other end keeping things tight.

What is funny is how nobody rated Kumble at that time the way certain posters see Ashwin nowadays, because it was understood Kumble was a limited homebasher.

It is only in the 2000s when Kumble did a bit better away from home that he earned more respect.

What a lot of people forget is that Kumble was never a big turner of the ball. He had a high arm-action...and was probably on the high side in terms of the perpendicular. He bowled a lot of top-spinners and he had a good wrong-un/googly too. His high arm action meant he also generated a lot of bounce. Compare Kumble to Warne.......Warne had a more round arm-action and Stuart MacGill had an even more rounder arm-action. Both Warne and MacGill were big turners of the ball due to thier round arm-action.

 

[ZK$]

And if, like Jadeja, he was selected and used in such a way as to allow him to take 70.5% of his wickets at home with that split, his average would've been 26 in the 90s.

The home pitches in the 2000s before he retired were not anywhere near as consistently favourable. Some of them were proper turners, yes, but not near as often as what happens now.

I’m just talking about the 1990s though. I agree that the 2000s were significantly more batting friendly.

 

[Prince EWS]

I’m just talking about the 1990s though. I agree that the 2000s were significantly more batting friendly.

I don't think anyone disagrees with you about the 90s.

If anything it backs up Subs's claims that Kumble would average low 20s at home on the sort of pitches we've seen throughout Ashwin and Jadeja's career - because we saw exactly that happen in the 90s.

 

[ZK$]

I don't think anyone disagrees with you about the 90s.

If anything it backs up Subs's claims that Kumble would average low 20s at home on the sort of pitches we've seen throughout Ashwin and Jadeja's career - because we saw exactly that happen in the 90s.

I agree with that. I think subshakerz is saying the 90s were significantly more batting friendly like the 2000s as well.

 

[ma1978]

I gave you evidence in the first post. Look at the terrific hauls foreign spinners were getting in this last decade, several of them very average spinners.

- Lyon 19 wickets@25 and 22 wickets @22
- Tahir 14 wickets @21
- Harmer 10 wickets@25
- O Keefe 19 wickets @23
- Leach 18 wickets @28
- Murphy 14 wickets @25
- Patel 17 wickets @22

Was there anything comparable by foreign spinners in the 90s? Perhaps only Saqlain in 99. Murali and Warne were murdered in India that decade.

This is comparing an ATG batting lineup in the 2000s (attainable the goat jn home conditions) against a very average batting lineup

 

[subshakerz]

I agree with that. I think subshakerz is saying the 90s were significantly more batting friendly like the 2000s as well.

Nope. 90s were bowling friendly but not to the same degree as the past decade. And we all agree DRS would have helped Kumble too.

 

[subshakerz]

This is comparing an ATG batting lineup in the 2000s (attainable the goat jn home conditions) against a very average batting lineup

Don't think Kohlis team was that poor they would struggle against Tahir and Harmer, etc. It's the pitches, simple.

 

[honestbharani]

Its not exactly 80s Pak level bad but Kumble very definitely benefitted from umpires like AV Jayaprakash at home far more than Ashwin etc. did. You could also argue he probably had the negative impact of biased home umpiring when he toured but I just remember far more bad decisions he got that benefitted him at home than any that did not help him away.

A few against Australia in Australia do come to mind but otherwise, he just seemed to get more of those 50-50 or even less close ones in his favor when he played in India. Jayaprakash was especially bad when Srinath or Kumble were bowling.

 

[Xix2565]

Still not seeing a lot of actual arguments here though. Subs isn't the only one out here giving ideas and doing the bare minimum of finding numbers.

 

[subshakerz]

Still not seeing a lot of actual arguments here though. Subs isn't the only one out here giving ideas and doing the bare minimum of finding numbers.

Why don't you share some rather than all this whinging.