The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Bolo.]

Played less Tests than Steyn and Ambrose, let alone McGrath.

It's a fine margin, 10-15 Tests, but I'm going to credit the fast bowlers who did play them and maintain their stellar record, over the ones which we would surmise could. After all, when we talk about the top 5, we are only dealing in fine margins, as they are all obviously exemplary.

Time is a better measure than number of tests. You can't expect a Bangladesh player to have a 30 Year career to match an England 10 Year one. He played a fair bit longer than Steyn, and a lot longer than Ambrose. He also has a fair few more wickets than Ambrose, and nearly as many as Steyn. Would you rank a bat scoring less runs in more games ahead of one scoring more in less?

 

[bagapath]

It could be argued, successfully, that Richard Hadlee was the greatest bowler to have played the game of cricket, ever.

Choosing any of Marshall, Ambrose, Akram, Imran, Lillee, McGrath, Steyn, Truman, Barnes is fine. They all, along with Hadlee, belong to the top 10 and it is impossible to choose one over the other. But even in that elite company Hadlee is the primus inter pares.

 

[honestbharani]

It could be argued, successfully, that Richard Hadlee was the greatest bowler to have played the game of cricket, ever.

yes, we all know @Fuller Pilch exists here.

 

[kyear2]

It could be argued, successfully, that Richard Hadlee was the greatest bowler to have played the game of cricket, ever.

Choosing any of Marshall, Ambrose, Akram, Imran, Lillee, McGrath, Steyn, Truman, Barnes is fine. They all, along with Hadlee, belong to the top 10 and it is impossible to choose one over the other. But even in that elite company Hadlee is the primus inter pares.

Yeah, think that's a 3 man argument, 5 at most. And I think it's quite easy to distinguish the top from the bottom five of that list.

 

[trundler]

Hadlee only missed 14 tests available to him during his career. Over 17 years.

Team records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Red]

Marshall should be in the all-rounders.

Hard to see Marshall making many test teams as a batsman

 

[bagapath]

World beating champions and teams peak at different times. From what I remember one can say that...

1975 - 1985: Clive Lloyd's West Indies team matured into the greatest cricket team ever assembled at the international level. They set new standards for aggressive, entertaining cricket with some of the most sparkling stars to have graced a sporting arena playing together under one inspired skipper.
ODI cricket was introduced in all nations and started growing in popularity.

Sunil Gavaskar
Gordon Greenidge
Viv Richards
GC Chappell
Clive Lloyd *
Ian Botham
Imran Khan
Rod Marsh +
Dennis Lillee
Michael Holding
BS Chandrasekar

Squad: Andy Roberts/ Bishan Bedi/ Joel Garner

1986 - 1996: West Indies continued to stay on top after some of their champions retired in '85 and '87. But they drew four series consecutively before rediscovering the winning touch in '88 in England. Most of their remaining champions bowed out in '91 starting the end of their dominance. At their peak, Pakistan seriously challenged the West Indies for the crown and was not defeated in three test series over five years. Pakistan were too mercurial to become the undisputed top dog, though. Australia was depleted by the retirements of three stalwarts in 1984. but slowly built itself back to being a great team once again under a great fighter. Their next captain completed the ascent and dethroned the Wes Indies in West Indies.
ODI cricket became the popular form of cricket in the sub continent with Asian teams winning the WC in '83/ '92 and '96

Desmond Haynes
Graham Gooch
Martin Crowe
Javed Miandad
Allan Border *
Kapil Dev
Jeff Dujon +
Richard Hadlee
Wasim Akram
Malcolm Marshall
Curtley Ambrose

Squad: Abdul Qadir/ David Gower/ Waqar Younis

1997-2007: Australia showed the world how good a cricket team could actually become and stayed on top for a whole decade. Some of the greatest cricketers of all time played in that team. At the same time, India too produced some of the finest batsmen to have played the game; and fielded them together. A few test series with full box office worthy entertainment were played out in the West Indies in '98-99, in India in 2001 and in England in 2005 - all featuring Australia.
T20 cricket was introduced.

Matty Hayden
Virender Sehwag
Ricky Ponting *
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara
Jacques Kallis
Adam Gilchrist
Shaun Pollock
Shane Warne
Muralidharan
Glen McGrath

Squad: Allan Donald/ Rahul Dravid/ Andrew Flintoff

2008 - 2018: Pakistan could not host home matches for a decade. Global test series started producing one sided results - with home teams frequently blanking out opponents and getting blanked out in the reciprocal series. India became the biggest cricketing power at the administrative level - and on the field produced both embarrassing defeats and historic wins. Cricketers from all over the world played together for IPL franchises.
T20 cricket became more popular than ODIs.

Grame Smith *
Alaistair Cook
Kumar Sangakara
Kane Williamson
Steve Smith
Ben Stokes
MS Dhoni +
Ravi Ashwin
Pat Cummins
Dale Steyn
James Anderson

Squad: Virat Kohli/ ABDV/ Joe Root

 

[TheJediBrah]

80s Windies would never have made a WTC final

 

[Zinzan]

2008 - 2018:

Graeme Smith *
Alaistair Cook
Kumar Sangakkara
Kane Williamson
Steve Smith
Ben Stokes
MS Dhoni +
Ravi Ashwin
Pat Cummins
Dale Steyn
James Anderson

Squad: Virat Kohli/ ABDV/ Joe Root

Root over Williamson tbh

 

[trundler]

Younis over both, quite easily.

 

[Zinzan]

No, Younis wasn't quite as good as those two although was still a good player in his own right.

 

[trundler]

A tier above both. Managed big scores everywhere, even where he was poor overall and was brilliant across conditions more so and for longer than either.

 

[Zinzan]

A tier above both. Managed big scores everywhere, even where he was poor overall and was brilliant across conditions more so and for longer than either.

Nah, do a poll & you'll fairly quickly see the consensus amongst cricket fans on this. (Except on Pakistan passion of course).

 

[Bolo.]

Younis, AB and Kohli all comfortably better than Root and Kane for the period under consideration.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Root wouldn't make it for that timespan for me. His best run has come in only the last few years when he's finally managed to correct his conversion rate issues.

If you stretch the period to the current day he's been better than Kw/Younis/kohli, but not for pre 2019.

 

[trundler]

Nah, do a poll & you'll fairly quickly see the consensus amongst cricket fans on this. (Except on Pakistan passion of course).

CW's Ranking of Batsmen (Tests)

This part is true. Ftr I think peak Clarke was closer to Lara than DeVilliers if we strictly keep this for tests. Not many can slap Steyn, Phillander and Morkel the way he did on a Cape Town pitch which yielded two double figure team scores for the next two innings. Timely reminder of how good...

www.cricketweb.net

Younis Khan 26

Joe Root 36
Kane Williamson 39

That's pretty decisive.

 

[Zinzan]

Younis, AB and Kohli all comfortably better than Root and Kane for the period under consideration.

Probably fair enough, I wasn't paying so much attention to that timespan.

 

[Bolo.]

Probably fair enough, I wasn't paying so much attention to that timespan.

You aren't the only one... OP picked Cummins, who effectively debuted in 2017, for a team ending 2018.

 

[TheJediBrah]

If we're counting their whole careers (which we're not, so yeah), not just up until 2018, then Root is better than those guys for sure

 

[trundler]

Root over Younis is worth a conversation though I'd still like YK for longevity and his ability to go big. 34 tons in 118 matches is insane. Root has 30 in almost 20 more matches.