The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Prince EWS]

McGrath was clearly better than Steyn, that wasn't my point.

I want Marshall, along with a metronome (McGrath or Hadlee) and someone more aggressive who can mover around the ball, old or new (Steyn, Imran, Wasim)

I want the best combination, without having all three from the same era, and having at least one decent bat at 8 (Imran or Hadlee)

Hence the proposed combinations

If I was going to put such extra value on variety I'd probably go for Wasim rather than Steyn. Wasim could bat too so could even take the "#8 must be able to hold the stick" spot and leave an 8-11 of Wasim/Marshall/Warne/McGrath.

 

[Coronis]

McGrath was clearly better than Steyn, that wasn't my point.

I want Marshall, along with a metronome (McGrath or Hadlee) and someone more aggressive who can mover around the ball, old or new (Steyn, Imran, Wasim)

I want the best combination, without having all three from the same era, and having at least one decent bat at 8 (Imran or Hadlee)

Hence the proposed combinations

Idk where the misconception has come from but Hadlee swung the ball plenty iirc.

 

[trundler]

Idk where the misconception has come from but Hadlee swung the ball plenty iirc.

According to Boycott he was the most likely to swing it regardless of conditions. Or something to that effect.

 

[kyear2]

Idk where the misconception has come from but Hadlee swung the ball plenty iirc.

Also said aggressive. I want that extra aggression and speed as well. McGrath and Hadlee and some what comparable so for me it's generally one or the other.

 

[kyear2]

Longevity /= consistency

Thanks for playing, bozo.

Beginning to wonder if you're being contrarian for the fun of it.

 

[Socerer 01]

Beginning to wonder if you're being contrarian for the fun of it.

yes

 

[shortpitched713]

Beginning to wonder if you're being contrarian for the fun of it.

One could say to an extent.

However, Tendulkar did have a year's long extended slump in the early 2000s. It was between him and Ganguly as both being very underperforming bats (relative to the conditions and other significant Indian batting talent) in danger of being dropped.

Yes, this period doesn't disqualify him from ATG, nor do I think he's especially inconsistent compared to the average batsman. But some people like to do revisionist history, and pretend he never underperformed, or was the model of consistency. Nah, he wasn't, and playing for a really, really long time doesn't change that.

Minded didn't have that kind of extended slump. I'll give him credit for that.

 

[h_hurricane]

One could say to an extent.

However, Tendulkar did have a year's long extended slump in the early 2000s. It was between him and Ganguly as both being very underperforming bats (relative to the conditions and other significant Indian batting talent) in danger of being dropped.

Yes, this period doesn't disqualify him from ATG, nor do I think he's especially inconsistent compared to the average batsman. But some people like to do revisionist history, and pretend he never underperformed, or was the model of consistency. Nah, he wasn't, and playing for a really, really long time doesn't change that.

Minded didn't have that kind of extended slump. I'll give him credit for that.

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

A solitary hundred in his last 4 years.

 

[The Sean]

Minded didn't have that kind of extended slump. I'll give him credit for that.

In Javed Miandad's last four years of Test cricket, he played 24 Tests and averaged 33. That's a fairly extended slump for a bloke averaging 57 up to that point.

 

[shortpitched713]

Okay, I'll give you that.

I'm still backing the Miandad man.

 

[Coronis]

People seem to forget a slump if its end of a career apparently, no matter how long it is.

 

[Red]

Specialists vs All Rounders

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Lara
Knott
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose
McGrath

Simpson
Jayasuriya
Kallis
Sobers
Faulkner
Miller
Gilchrist
Botham
Benaud
Imran
Davidson

Moderately tenuous, but working on the theory that specialists would never be picked in a test side for a secondary skill, and ARs could’ve been picked as a specialist in their secondary skill in plenty of test sides

 

[Prince EWS]

Specialists vs All Rounders

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Lara
Knott
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose
McGrath

Simpson
Jayasuriya
Kallis
Sobers
Faulkner
Miller
Gilchrist
Botham
Benaud
Imran
Davidson

Moderately tenuous, but working on the theory that specialists would never be picked in a test side for a secondary skill, and ARs could’ve been picked as a specialist in their secondary skill in plenty of test sides

Not sure many teams are picking Simpson for his bowling, as useful as it was. Goddard probably a better call.

Hadlee not qualifying for either side is funny but probably fair given the criteria you've given.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Specialists vs All Rounders

Hutton
Hobbs
Bradman
Tendulkar
Richards
Lara
Knott
Marshall
Warne
Ambrose
McGrath

Simpson
Jayasuriya
Kallis
Sobers
Faulkner
Miller
Gilchrist
Botham
Benaud
Imran
Davidson

Moderately tenuous, but working on the theory that specialists would never be picked in a test side for a secondary skill, and ARs could’ve been picked as a specialist in their secondary skill in plenty of test sides

Marshall should be in the all-rounders.

 

[TheJediBrah]

People seem to forget a slump if its end of a career apparently, no matter how long it is.

Ponting says hi

 

[Prince EWS]

Marshall should be in the all-rounders.

No-one would have ever picked him for batting in a Test team. Davo is stretching it a little bit as well I think.

Joel Garner should be there though.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Joel could hit the ball further with his dick than his bat

 

[shortpitched713]

Joel could hit the ball further with his dick than his bat

Brah.

 

[Bolo.]

I know I'm way out of the norm with a lot of my picks. Shaun Pollock over Imran is one of those. I just loved Pollock as a bowler. Similar as my love for McGrath as a bowler, but on a lesser scale. But yeah, I rate McGrath as undoubtedly the best ever ( far above the older bowlers like Marshall or even Hadlee whose careers I find a bit light on heft ).

Appreciated the batting order. For my side, I simply included them in the positions where statsguru says their position records would allow them to score the most runs. I guess Sanga would have the least to complain about, batting at 7, but given their records I feel none of them would have really liked it.

Edit:

Noticed two other pieces you changed.

1) Do you rate Sobers as a better Test captain than Imran? I think Imran got a bit more out of a lesser side than Sobers, and I remember there being some famous Stokesian declarations of Sobers as well.

2) You'd give McGrath the change bowler spot over Imran? I would have thought my previous configuration uses their skillsets better, what with Imran being the perfecter of reverse swing with the old ball, but yeah, hmm...

Hadlee played 17 years and retired as the top wicket taker in tests. There are still only 6 quicks above him on the wickets table, despite there being a lot more tests played since, and playing for a team that played less than most. Played 2 FC competitions at the same, so I don't think there are workload questions in relation to players since.

 

[shortpitched713]

Hadlee played 17 years and retired as the top wicket taker in tests. There are still only 6 quicks above him on the wickets table, despite there being a lot more tests played since, and playing for a team that played less than most. Played 2 FC competitions at the same, so I don't think there are workload questions in relation to players since.

Played less Tests than Steyn and Ambrose, let alone McGrath.

It's a fine margin, 10-15 Tests, but I'm going to credit the fast bowlers who did play them and maintain their stellar record, over the ones which we would surmise could. After all, when we talk about the top 5, we are only dealing in fine margins, as they are all obviously exemplary.