The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[shortpitched713]

Don't you think Weekes is the second-best batsman ever or something? Why isn't he there?

He was before Sobers' time, and this XI is for more or less modern conditions. Even Sobers is a bit of a stretch, as he played in mostly uncovered wickets. Still I think his ability obviously translates enough to modern cricket as I know it.

Obviously, without such self-imposed restrictions I would include Bradman as well, but yeah, I like the team and it's where my understanding of modern cricket history and a holistic look at the records has led me to.

 

[Prince EWS]

On the Sanga thing, I think had he decided to continue wicket keeping he'd have still definitely improved his batting output as he entered his peak, but not by quite as much with the dual role. It's difficult to say exactly how much worse he'd have been with the bat in that scenario - I do actually highly suspect I'd rate him higher than Gilchrist if he kept his whole career, but it's just too much of an unknown for me to pull the trigger on it. Gilchrist being so suited to 7 is a factor too.

 

[shortpitched713]

Shaun Pollock was a cracking cricketer in every sense. But he was not as good as Imran as a bowler or batsman. He is certainly a contender for an all-time XI. But he doesn't stand a chance against Imran in a head to head comparison.

Everyone likes your batsmen. But having your wicket keeper bat at 3 is not going to help your team.

Having said all that the down right bad decision in your selection is having Miandad bat at 7. Absolutely useless there. No batsman of that style (accumulator)/ caliber (long innings champ) should bat that low in any test team.

If we were to stick to the names you have chosen, a better team sheet would look like is IMO

01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Matthew Hayden
03. Viv Richards
04. Brian Lara
05. Javed Miandad
06. Garfield Sobers (4,5) *
07. Kumar Sangakkara +
08. Imran Khan (1)
09. Richard Hadlee (2)
10. Muttiah Muralitharan (4,5)
11. Glenn McGrath (3)

12th man: Shaun Pollock

I know I'm way out of the norm with a lot of my picks. Shaun Pollock over Imran is one of those. I just loved Pollock as a bowler. Similar as my love for McGrath as a bowler, but on a lesser scale. But yeah, I rate McGrath as undoubtedly the best ever ( far above the older bowlers like Marshall or even Hadlee whose careers I find a bit light on heft ).

Appreciated the batting order. For my side, I simply included them in the positions where statsguru says their position records would allow them to score the most runs. I guess Sanga would have the least to complain about, batting at 7, but given their records I feel none of them would have really liked it.

Edit:

Noticed two other pieces you changed.

1) Do you rate Sobers as a better Test captain than Imran? I think Imran got a bit more out of a lesser side than Sobers, and I remember there being some famous Stokesian declarations of Sobers as well.

2) You'd give McGrath the change bowler spot over Imran? I would have thought my previous configuration uses their skillsets better, what with Imran being the perfecter of reverse swing with the old ball, but yeah, hmm...

 

[shortpitched713]

This must be trolling having such a great batsman as Javed Miandad at #7

Any of the middle order guys would have complained. Javed is the lesser of that illuminary list of batsmen, and that's the only reason he's at 7. But bagapath's order is actually very good, and on second thought, I would go with that (Imran at captain though, for mine).

Speaking of Miandad, the reason I loved him most as a bat, was just him having that one quality that many subcontinent players ( including Tendulkar ), and especially Pakistanis lacked throughout the years. That being consistency. The man never averaged below 50. Hell, for that reason I'd say he was even a better bat than either Imran or the two Ws were with the ball. Absolute gun for mine, and won't hear anything against that. Think burgey's love for Border, on this one.

 

[shortpitched713]

On the Sanga thing, I think had he decided to continue wicket keeping he'd have still definitely improved his batting output as he entered his peak, but not by quite as much with the dual role. It's difficult to say exactly how much worse he'd have been with the bat in that scenario - I do actually highly suspect I'd rate him higher than Gilchrist if he kept his whole career, but it's just too much of an unknown for me to pull the trigger on it. Gilchrist being so suited to 7 is a factor too.

Yeah, we just don't know. It's another possibility in the multiverse, as to which of Gilly or Sanga in that case would have been a better WK-batsman IMO. I just went with the more controversial choice, because I'm me.

 

[TheJediBrah]

On the Sanga thing, I think had he decided to continue wicket keeping he'd have still definitely improved his batting output as he entered his peak, but not by quite as much with the dual role. It's difficult to say exactly how much worse he'd have been with the bat in that scenario - I do actually highly suspect I'd rate him higher than Gilchrist if he kept his whole career, but it's just too much of an unknown for me to pull the trigger on it. Gilchrist being so suited to 7 is a factor too.

Sanga's batting even without these stipulations is just not as good as many people think. He's a perfect target for the "career average is everything, ignore all context" crowd.

I'm very tempted to say that he shouldn't be in an ATG team at all, because Gilchrist is such a better choice as keeper and Sanga is just not good enough as a batsman alone. But I feel like it's borderline ok for "experience keeping to Murali reasons"

 

[centurymaker]

Nobody besides you would have 'home bully/ cover the stumps' Miandad ahead of all the other fine ATGs.

In fact he is not even top 15 of all time. I'd easily have these 15 above him-

Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Lara

Chappell, Ponting, Smith, Kallis, Hobbs,

Gavaskar, Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Sangakkara

.... There's also Pollock, Headley, Barrington

Dravid, Y Khan, Waugh, Border. He probably fits in with this bunch.

 

[shortpitched713]

Nobody besides you would have 'home bully/ cover the stumps' Miandad ahead of all the other fine ATGs.

In fact he is not even top 15 of all time. I'd easily have these 15 above him-

Bradman, Richards, Tendulkar, Sobers, Lara

Chappell, Ponting, Smith, Kallis, Hobbs,

Gavaskar, Hutton, Hammond, Sutcliffe, Sangakkara

.... There's also Pollock, Headley, Barrington

Dravid, Y Khan, Waugh, Border. He probably fits in with this bunch.

 

[Prince EWS]

My All Time XI (of cricket as I know it)

No Don, no currently playing players, and no one from eras in which cricket is vastly different than it is now ( so uncovered pitch era, or even the era of no video footage! are all out )

01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Matthew Hayden
03. Kumar Sangakkara +
04. Brian Lara
05. Viv Richards
06. Garry Sobers * (4,5)
07. Javed Miandad
08. Imran Khan* / Shaun Pollock (3)
09. Richard Hadlee / Shaun Pollock (2)
10. Muttiah Muralitharan (4,5)
11. Glenn McGrath (1)

Had to have a think over the lower order. I think at 8 and 9, Imran/Pollock/Hadlee offer more value than Ambrose/Steyn. I would bring in Warne for Hadlee, if it is a true Sri Lankan cracker jack of a turning wicket, but I realize that it does weaken the batting.

No one likes my batsmen, I already know that. Think Shaun Pollock is massively underrated though. I think he's a better bat than Hadlee ( not that controversial ), and a better bowler than Imran ( definitely much more controversial ).

I do think for my first choice I'd pick Hadlee first of the 3, as the best bowler and new ball partner to McGrath, and then Imran as a better all-rounder coming at 8 ( and also as captain over Sobers in that configuration). Pollock though, unlucky to miss out, for mine as one of the truly highest impact cricketers of all time.

Using this criteria of basically "Sobers and after" I'd go with:

1. Gavaskar
2. Simpson
3. Lara
4. Tendulkar
5. Kallis
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8. Imran
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

Was very tempted to make Dravid open tbh.

 

[trundler]

Using this criteria of basically "Sobers and after" I'd go with:

1. Gavaskar
2. Simpson
3. Lara
4. Tendulkar
5. Richards
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8. Imran
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

Was very tempted to make Dravid open tbh.

Yeah I'll take that

 

[_00_deathscar]

Any of the middle order guys would have complained. Javed is the lesser of that illuminary list of batsmen, and that's the only reason he's at 7. But bagapath's order is actually very good, and on second thought, I would go with that (Imran at captain though, for mine).

Speaking of Miandad, the reason I loved him most as a bat, was just him having that one quality that many subcontinent players ( including Tendulkar ), and especially Pakistanis lacked throughout the years. That being consistency. The man never averaged below 50. Hell, for that reason I'd say he was even a better bat than either Imran or the two Ws were with the ball. Absolute gun for mine, and won't hear anything against that. Think burgey's love for Border, on this one.

TIL Sachin was not a consistent batsman, usually the one thing everyone unanimously agrees about.
Were you dropped on your head recently, or did it happen when you were a child?

 

[The Sean]

Using this criteria of basically "Sobers and after" I'd go with:

1. Gavaskar
2. Simpson
3. Lara
4. Tendulkar
5. Kallis
6. Sobers
7. Gilchrist
8. Imran
9. Marshall
10. Warne
11. McGrath

Was very tempted to make Dravid open tbh.

That 6-11 is (in my current mind, anyway) my All Time World 6-11.

 

[h_hurricane]

Any of the middle order guys would have complained. Javed is the lesser of that illuminary list of batsmen, and that's the only reason he's at 7. But bagapath's order is actually very good, and on second thought, I would go with that (Imran at captain though, for mine).

Speaking of Miandad, the reason I loved him most as a bat, was just him having that one quality that many subcontinent players ( including Tendulkar ), and especially Pakistanis lacked throughout the years. That being consistency. The man never averaged below 50. Hell, for that reason I'd say he was even a better bat than either Imran or the two Ws were with the ball. Absolute gun for mine, and won't hear anything against that. Think burgey's love for Border, on this one.

Even if you have a good reason to rate Miandad that highly, this one is not a good one imo. He scored 504 runs @ 126 against NZ in his debut series in 1976. A few months down the line, he scored 151 runs combined in away tours to Aus and WI @21.57. Now imagine these away tours happened before his home series, and everything else remains the same through his career, he wouldn't have "never averaged below 50" through his career.

 

[Prince EWS]

That 6-11 is (in my current mind, anyway) my All Time World 6-11.

Yeah they're my 6-11 too. I just had to swap out Hobbs, Hutton, Bradman and Hammond for modern bats.

 

[shortpitched713]

Happy now Coronis? XI

01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Sachin Tendulkar
03. Viv Richards
04. Brian Lara
05. Javed Miandad
06. Garfield Sobers (4,5)
07. Kumar Sangakkara +
08. Imran Khan * (3)
09. Richard Hadlee (2)
10. Muttiah Muralitharan (4,5)
11. Glenn McGrath (1)

YES THIS POST IS IN JEST

 

[shortpitched713]

TIL Sachin was not a consistent batsman, usually the one thing everyone unanimously agrees about.
Were you dropped on your head recently, or did it happen when you were a child?

Longevity /= consistency

Thanks for playing, bozo.

 

[Coronis]

wrt to the Sanga debate…

Probs doesn’t mean anything and cross format is impossible to compare but ftr these are his ODI stats before and after he gave up the gloves in tests (SL Tour of England 2006)

Before:
153 innings 4746 @ 35.41 (SR 73.24) 5 tons 31 fifties

After:
227 innings 9488 @ 46.28 (SR 82.01) 20 tons 62 fifties

Clearly he was beginning his peak as a batsman after giving up the gloves in tests. I’m sure it would have had an effect on his overall performance - we can only speculate to what extent.

fwiw (samplesizelol) he later kept in a match in 2008 in the West Indies - scored 10 and 14.

(SL lost btw - guess which bloody awful batsman was on 86* winning it in the 4th innings for WI?)

 

[shortpitched713]

TIL Sachin was not a consistent batsman, usually the one thing everyone unanimously agrees about.
Were you dropped on your head recently, or did it happen when you were a child?

Longevity /= consistency

Thanks for playing, bozo.

 

[Coronis]

Happy now Coronis? XI

01. Sunil Gavaskar
02. Sachin Tendulkar
03. Viv Richards
04. Brian Lara
05. Javed Miandad
06. Garfield Sobers (4,5)
07. Kumar Sangakkara +
08. Imran Khan * (3)
09. Richard Hadlee (2)
10. Muttiah Muralitharan (4,5)
11. Glenn McGrath (1)

YES THIS POST IS IN JEST

Oh no, you got me good..

 

[Howe_zat]

All Time XI

1. Wasim Jiffy
2. Farokh Enginyear +
3. Everton Weeks
4. David G-hour
5. Kevin Pietercentury
6. Andrew Symonths
7. Hilton Fortnight
8. Minute Patel
9. Dayle Hadlee
10. Kyle Millisecond
11. Bhagwat Chandrasecond