Why Do ATG XI's Have More Pacers Than Specialist Spin Bowlers?

[Coronis]

You should really be picking the best specialists available - Sobers bowling is a bonus, Gilly was a world class keeper - his batting is just a ridiculous bonus to a team.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Absolutely true but no one is picking Gilchrist purely for his keeping

 

[ataraxia]

There's so little to separate the greats from each other though. When it comes down to it, McGrath and Imran are bunched up at the top of the bowling stakes but the difference in their batting ability is enormous. McGrath might average 28 at AT level and Imran 31, but in batting McGrath's might be at 4 and Imran 27.

It's something that is especially true for batters, because bowlers are more important to the team than batters – there's less of them. IMO the difference between, I dunno, Lara and Kallis as bats is clear but ultimately negligible. If it were to come down to a choice between them, then Kallis' bowling and fielding skills will lean it well his way.

 

[TheJediBrah]

IMO the difference between, I dunno, Lara and Kallis as bats is clear but ultimately negligible. If it were to come down to a choice between them, then Kallis' bowling and fielding skills will lean it well his way.

Couldn't disagree more

 

[Red]

Revising earlier XI

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Richards
Miller
Sobers
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Murali

Ideal combo imo. Miller is a genuine quick who can be used in his preferred short bursts with two elite spinners. 5 bowlers plus Sobers. Hadlee or Imran at 7 is personal choice, Hadlee a better bowler and Imran a better bat.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Wonder how Sobers and Gilchrist would feel about batting below Miller

 

[The Sean]

Wonder how Sobers and Gilchrist would feel about batting below Miller

It looks as though he's simply picked them to play in their most common batting position, rather than it being an order of precedence.

 

[kyear2]

Revising earlier XI

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Richards
Miller
Sobers
Gilchrist
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne
Murali

Ideal combo imo. Miller is a genuine quick who can be used in his preferred short bursts with two elite spinners. 5 bowlers plus Sobers. Hadlee or Imran at 7 is personal choice, Hadlee a better bowler and Imran a better bat.

With Warne and especially Murali capable of holding down and end the entire day, and Hadlee also capable of marathon spells, even with the need for additional depth of the quicks, wouldn't Kallis be a better option.
If we're playing two spinners, I'm guessing it's a slow pitch, and using Miller in very short Burt's with the new ball may have really diminished returns in comparison to the created weakness in the middle order.

For mine, I'll stick to my basic team and ask Sobers to try the slower stuff. If Ashwin can lower his away average by 10 on home pitches, sure Sobers would be more effective on such surfaces as well.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

Why? He’s a better bowler than both of them

Imran only slightly and with Hadlee it's debatable.

But let's Imran and Mcgrath. The marginal improvement that Mcgrath brings in bowling is not enough to offset what Imran brings in regards to batting and captaincy.

Mcgrath gonna take 8 for 160 and would hardly contribute with the bat while Imran would not only take 8 for 174 but also gonna hit 65 odd runs.

It may not seems much bit we have to remember that 80s India had a pretty fragile lower order and Imran strengthen it's by a lot. So does his captaincy. One of the biggest issues facing India in 80s was constant infighting and factionalism. So a captain like Imran has the capacity to stabilize a side like that.

As for Hadlee vs Mcgrath. I would pick Hadlee on bowling alone. His batting is just a plus.

 

[Slifer]

Imran only slightly and with Hadlee it's debatable.

But let's Imran and Mcgrath. The marginal improvement that Mcgrath brings in bowling is not enough to offset what Imran brings in regards to batting and captaincy.

Mcgrath gonna take 8 for 160 and would hardly contribute with the bat while Imran would not only take 8 for 174 but also gonna hit 65 odd runs.

It may not seems much bit we have to remember that 80s India had a pretty fragile lower order and Imran strengthen it's by a lot. So does his captaincy. One of the biggest issues facing India in 80s was constant infighting and factionalism. So a captain like Imran has the capacity to stabilize a side like that.

As for Hadlee vs Mcgrath. I would just pick Hadlee on bowling alone. His batting is just a plus.

Very very reasonable assessment.

 

[Slifer]

My atg team, if anybody cares is finally more or less settled:

Hobbs
Hutton
Bradman
Sachin
Viv
Sobers
Gilchrist +
Imran*
Hadlee
Marshall
Warne

12th man Roger Harper (don't laugh)

 

[kyear2]

Imran only slightly and with Hadlee it's debatable.

But let's Imran and Mcgrath. The marginal improvement that Mcgrath brings in bowling is not enough to offset what Imran brings in regards to batting and captaincy.

Mcgrath gonna take 8 for 160 and would hardly contribute with the bat while Imran would not only take 8 for 174 but also gonna hit 65 odd runs.

It may not seems much bit we have to remember that 80s India had a pretty fragile lower order and Imran strengthen it's by a lot. So does his captaincy. One of the biggest issues facing India in 80s was constant infighting and factionalism. So a captain like Imran has the capacity to stabilize a side like that.

As for Hadlee vs Mcgrath. I would just pick Hadlee on bowling alone. His batting is just a plus.

Again, I don't think the bowling difference between McGrath and Imran is marginal and let's even just look at their statistics in India.
Both have decent sample size and Imran didn't play in India either at the beginning or end of his career.
McGrath averaged 21, Imran 28.

Batting or not, if I had a chance to get one of the 2 or 3 greatest bowlers who ever lived I'll take it. I do believe that little difference can make a difference between victory and defeat.
As some others have said, you go for the specialists, and if your team is generally relying on rear guard action to save tests, you might have bigger problems.

Note I'm not saying Imran wouldn't have been welcome during that period, his batting, bowling and captaincy would have been a plus. Just not over McGrath and at most 2 others.

Just to add, I believe bowlers are the match winners in cricket and a bit more important than batsmen and I believe I'm taking Pigeon and Maco above any and everyone including the Don. I know that's heresy, and wouldn't garner agreement but those two are the catalysts of the two greatest teams ever and the point is to win. So no, this is not an Imran thing.

 

[Coronis]

I mean, any marginal difference between bowlers could be the difference between a game changing wicket and a dot ball at any point.

 

[shortpitched713]

My ATG xi has both Murali and Warne.

I hope your ATG XI only plays in Sri Lanka.

 

[shortpitched713]

Nearly all spinners apart from O’Reilly have holes in their records.Some were pitch dependents and majority don’t have good record against ATG Batting line up.

O'Reilly ( and Grimmett too for that matter) have a huge whole in their record, in comparison to Murali and Warne. They played in an era when spinners actually generally took wickets at a better average (and basically the same strike rate) as their pace bowling peers. When you take that factor into account, you can't really any longer say that their bowling records can hold up in comparison to Murali and Warne, who played in the modern era of significant pace > spin advantage, and have very comparable bowling averages (in generally more batting friendly conditions to boot).

 

[shortpitched713]

Another hack can be Barnes instead of Warne - part spinner, part medium pacer. That used to be my pick earlier.

Ew. I mean, even assuming that his **** works at all against professional quality batsmen, he also can't bat worth a lick. Don't get me wrong his bowling record is great, even accounting for his era just yeah, I'd take like 9 dudes above him even if he can bowl as well as his record.

 

[shortpitched713]

Not going to bowl in an ATG level contest tbph.

Kallis and Sobers are both serviceable 5th bowlers in an all time contest. But yeah, still have to pick a really strong core of 4 specialists even after that, I'd say.

 

[shortpitched713]

Cos they dum.

Grimmett/O’Reilly together:

15 matches 169 wickets (11.27 wpm) @ 21.15
(Grimmett 88 @ 20.85, O’Reilly 81 @ 21.46)

Grimmett without O’Reilly: 128 @ 26.53
O’Reilly without Grimmett: 63 @ 24.04 (including that one off test against NZ)

O'Reilly ( and Grimmett too for that matter) have a huge whole in their record, in comparison to Murali and Warne. They played in an era when spinners actually generally took wickets at a better average (and basically the same strike rate) as their pace bowling peers. When you take that factor into account, you can't really any longer say that their bowling records can hold up in comparison to Murali and Warne, who played in the modern era of significant pace > spin advantage, and have very comparable bowling averages (in generally more batting friendly conditions to boot).

 

[shortpitched713]

All time elevens don’t need an all rounder tbh, unless someone is dumb enough to omit Bradman. If he plays with five other specialist batsmen there will always be enough runs scored so quickly that four bowlers will invariably get it done for you anyway. And if Sobers is one of your batsmen (as he always should be) then he’s a handy enough fifth bowler to bowl the 4 or 5 overs which the team would need made up on a really, really bad day.

Two of arguably the three best test sides in history did just fine without an allrounder because their specialists were good enough. It would be the same with an AT XI

I don't include Bradman in any of these because it's a bit boring. You could include Bradman in an ATG side with Kraigg Braithwaite, Hamish Marshall, and Mark Ealham, and it still probably beats a side without Bradman due to sheer weight of his runs. He just skews things preposterously, and it's not fun to talk about.

Edit:

Consequently, imo a Bradmanless team with Imran or even Botham batting at 7 is batting light for mine. ATG opposition bowling getting the ball to talk, I just don't want to go in with a long tail and no chance to mitigate a bad innings start.

 

[shortpitched713]

It's something that is especially true for batters, because bowlers are more important to the team than batters – there's less of them. IMO the difference between, I dunno, Lara and Kallis as bats is clear but ultimately negligible. If it were to come down to a choice between them, then Kallis' bowling and fielding skills will lean it well his way.

Nah, it's not that clearcut. There's huge diminishing returns going from 4th bowler to 5th to 6th. Kallis over Lara as a 6th bowler for instance, is laughable in my mind.