The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Slifer]

Why do you keep repeating this and whom is it in reference to? Because if its Kohli and Root and Williamson it doesn’t matter.
He doesn’t average any more spectacularly away than the guys he’s competing with for that “best after Bradman” slot — highly indicating it’s his dominating home performance (aided by pitches partly), that’s contributing to his higher average (Labu averages 70 at home, Khawaja also has a mad home average, as does Head — and so on).

Otherwise why are people even arguing a 60 average Smith vs a 50 average Lara?

The fact is, most of us consider him in the group for the best after Bradman. If you don't consider him to be there, that's your prerogative. And none of us have ever said he's definitively the 2nd best. Fact of the matter is, there's no 2nd best. But Smith does have the best case amongst his contemporaries and he surely doesn't look out of place among the Sobers, Hobbs, Sachins etc.

 

[_00_deathscar]

The fact is, most of us consider him in the group for the best after Bradman. If you don't consider him to be there, that's your prerogative. And none of us have ever said he's definitively the 2nd best. Fact of the matter is, there's no 2nd best. But Smith does have the best case amongst his contemporaries and he surely doesn't look out of place among the Sobers, Hobbs, Sachins etc.

Eh what are you on about? I consider him there in that group, but at the bottom of it.
And there are people arguing he’s the 2nd best in the clear, or hypothesising that if he retired now then he would be - hence the argument.

 

[bagapath]

Sachin was in the Martin Crowe league for half his career...

SRT from 1989 - 1992 and then from 2005-2013

100

167

14

7127

214

46.58

21

34

5

He was a colossal giant for 12 years in between those two phases

SRT between 1993 and 2004

100

162

19

8794

248*

61.49

15938

55.17

30

34

9

If his peak years had actually been his career's first half, then he would have been touted as the undisputed second best after Bradman and then, after the fall, bunched with the other greats as one of the greats vying for the second position - like it happened for Viv Richards who averaged 60+ for sometime early in his career and came down to a 50 avg.

Leaving out his last 10 tests, he was still a very good contender for the No.2 position.

SRT after 190 tests

314

32

15533

248*

55.08

51

65

14

No way Smith is going to become that undisputed contender. He is not going to be a mid range champ either.

He is going to one of the bunch of guys who had a phenomenal phase within an overall great career

 

[Slifer]

Eh what are you on about? I consider him there in that group, but at the bottom of it.
And there are people arguing he’s the 2nd best in the clear, or hypothesising that if he retired now then he would be - hence the argument.

Well fwiw, I'm not one of them. With that settled, can we go back to debating who's the best basketball player.....

 

[_00_deathscar]

Well fwiw, I'm not one of them. With that settled, can we go back to debating who's the best basketball player.....

It isn’t Steve Smith???

 

[Slifer]

It isn’t Steve Smith???

Haha

 

[Coronis]

It isn’t Steve Smith???

 

[honestbharani]

View attachment 36873

Frankly disappointed this was not in b/w

 

[shortpitched713]

Thrown in all modern ( or comparable to modern batsmen ) ATGs into a single top 10 list, including openers. Final list probably a bit harsh on Chappell, as I can't think of a way around the slippery slope of including WSC, without also considering other non Test exhibitions of a high standard, which I've always considered strictly not kosher. Still he gets top 10. Only players who have already retired are included.

1 ) Garry Sobers
2 ) Brian Lara
3 ) Sunil Gavaskar
4 ) Kumar Sangakkara
5 ) Viv Richards
6 ) Matthew Hayden
7 ) Javed Miandad
8 ) Jacques Kallis
9 ) Sachin Tendulkar
10) Greg Chappell

Doing a modern ( debuted 1970 or after ) ATG bowlers list, of only retired players as well. Not a clean 10, because I think the following group of 9 stand out over anyone below them.

Not going to do massive statistical comparisons between seamers and spinners ( although I have it in my mind to do so ). But for me, only Murali has the requisite impact as a spinner required to be in this group, Warne is on the outskirts (probably top 11ish) but not quite there, imho. McGrath is the standout, imo, above a very close pack of Murali, Steyn, Ambrose.

1 ) Glenn Mcgrath
2 ) Muttiah Muralitharan
3 ) Dale Steyn
4 ) Curtly Ambrose
5 ) Richard Hadlee
6 ) Malcolm Marshall
7 ) Allan Donald
8 ) Joel Garner
9 ) Shaun Pollock

Edit: Putting the batsmen in here too so it's all in one easy to read post.

1 ) Garry Sobers
2 ) Brian Lara
3 ) Sunil Gavaskar
4 ) Kumar Sangakkara
5 ) Viv Richards
6 ) Matthew Hayden
7 ) Javed Miandad
8 ) Jacques Kallis
9 ) Sachin Tendulkar
10) Greg Chappell

 

[ZK$]

1 ) Garry Sobers
2 ) Brian Lara
3 ) Sunil Gavaskar
4 ) Kumar Sangakkara
5 ) Viv Richards
6 ) Matthew Hayden
7 ) Javed Miandad
8 ) Jacques Kallis
9 ) Sachin Tendulkar
10) Greg Chappell

One of these is not like the others. Is this the order you rank them in?

 

[centurymaker]

Doing a modern ( debuted 1970 or after ) ATG bowlers list, of only retired players as well. Not a clean 10, because I think the following group of 9 stand out over anyone below them.

Not going to do massive statistical comparisons between seamers and spinners ( although I have it in my mind to do so ). But for me, only Murali has the requisite impact as a spinner required to be in this group, Warne is on the outskirts (probably top 11ish) but not quite there, imho. McGrath is the standout, imo, above a very close pack of Murali, Steyn, Ambrose.

1 ) Glenn Mcgrath
2 ) Muttiah Muralitharan
3 ) Dale Steyn
4 ) Curtly Ambrose
5 ) Richard Hadlee
6 ) Malcolm Marshall
7 ) Allan Donald
8 ) Joel Garner
9 ) Shaun Pollock

Edit: Putting the batsmen in here too so it's all in one easy to read post.

1 ) Garry Sobers
2 ) Brian Lara
3 ) Sunil Gavaskar
4 ) Kumar Sangakkara
5 ) Viv Richards
6 ) Matthew Hayden
7 ) Javed Miandad
8 ) Jacques Kallis
9 ) Sachin Tendulkar
10) Greg Chappell

Good joke.

 

[Fuller Pilch]

This used to happen against Bangladesh in the 00s too. Atapattu and Jayawardene both retired out in the same innings against Bangladesh once. I don't think Hobbs would've done this in the Ashes. If it was a thing in county cricket then meh. Even today teams do all sorts of things that wouldn't happen in tests, like Australia A's declaration against NZ A. The fastest ton in FC cricket isn't counted in official records because the bowlers were trying to make a game out of an unloseable match. This happened in the 70s I think.

In NZ 1st class cricket Robert Vance (an opening bat) conceded 77 runs in an over (HEAPS of no balls) with Lee Germon hitting 8 6s in 89/90.

 

[shortpitched713]

One of these is not like the others. Is this the order you rank them in?

Yes.

And Sobers is not like the others, because he debuted before 1970. That is acknowledged.

 

[ashley bach]

In NZ 1st class cricket Robert Vance (an opening bat) conceded 77 runs in an over (HEAPS of no balls) with Lee Germon hitting 8 6s in 89/90.

That was quite comical really. Think they changed the rules soon after.

 

[shortpitched713]

Good joke.

The way modern post apartheid SA test ATGs, and Sri Lankan golden age ATGs are routinely underrated and systematically disparaged?

Yes, it's a joke. But not a very funny one.

 

[Coronis]

The way modern post apartheid SA test ATGs, and Sri Lankan golden age ATGs are routinely underrated and systematically disparaged?

Yes, it's a joke. But not a very funny one.

I mean you could’ve tried to at least make it a more subtle joke. But you went too obvious with some of em.

 

[shortpitched713]

I mean you could’ve tried to at least make it a more subtle joke. But you went too obvious with some of em.

There's no joke. It's what I really think about player quality. I don't cowtow to the CW consensus.

That's one thing I appreciate about the lists of user @Pap Finn Keighl . Don't really agree that much. But it is his own, original opinion.

 

[Coronis]

There's no joke. It's what I really think about player quality. I don't cowtow to the CW consensus.

Yep Matthew Hayden > Sachin Tendulkar is good analysis of player quality.

That's one thing I appreciate about the lists of user @Pap Finn Keighl . Don't really agree that much. But it is his own, original opinion.

As opposed to the rest of us who are basically sheep right?

 

[shortpitched713]

As opposed to the rest of us who are basically sheep right?

If the wool fits, you must acquit.

Baah, baaaah.

 

[Coronis]

If the wool fits, you must acquit.

Baah, baaaah.

Somehow I expect if we all cowtowed to the consensus this thread might not have 21500 posts.