Imran Khan vs Dale Steyn

[Slifer]

Not Imran's fault, but not an equal comparison either

I'm not punishing Imran for standing out in his home conditions, I'm placing why he did into context.

So saying England is generally good bowling conditions, especially in that era is debunked because of one series? The match in question was one where England didn't pass 200 in either innings, I'm a bit lost.
The last two matches could be seen as high scoring, but in fourth there was a flurry of wickets in both second innings and the last Pakistan batted well, but still effortlessly bowled out England in their first innings and ran out of steam in their second.

Additionally the West Indies travelled to England the following year and Birmingham aside played on the same pitches and routed England. But I'm guessing the conditions drastically changed during that time.

I do not have anti Imran sentiments, nor do I engage in propaganda against anyone not named Novak Djokovic or 2021 Max Verstappen. I just find it annoying that you'll ignore or sweep over the fact that he ball tampered and that more than most he benefitted from favorable home umpires. He basically acknowledged both in various forums, more indirectly for the latter, but yeah.
And as I've said, none of these factors drops him to anything less than the great champion he was.

Please point out any additional questions that I haven't answered, because it's a bit tough keeping up with the posts

Umm what do you have against Novak? Lol lol

 

[OverratedSanity]

But explain to me how over the course of a career, you average 19 at home in unfriendly bowling conditions but 28, 24, 28, 26 and 25 literally every where else. Again, I'm not comparing him to Kapil and other less talented and established bowlers, I'm literally comparing him to Marshall, Hadlee, McGrath and to a lesser extent Steyn and Ambrose. It doesn't make logical sense, so explain to to me.

I've explained what the problem is and I'll do it again.

You keep saying Imran averaged 28,24,28,26 and 25 in "overseas bowler friendly conditions". If you delve into the statistics they paint a very different picture. Below are the away averages of some ATG bowlers vs the overall series averages of all bowlers in the away series they played. This gives us a very basic idea of their impact relative to the conditions (statistically at least):

Imran averaged 25.7 away from home vs an overall series average of 33 for all bowlers (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._involve=1383;template=results;type=aggregate)

Hadlee averaged 21.7 away from home vs an overall average of 30 for all bowlers (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._involve=1407;template=results;type=aggregate)

Marshall averaged 21.5 away from home vs an overall average of 29 for all bowlers (https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._involve=1571;template=results;type=aggregate)

Lilllee averaged 24.4 away from home vs an overall average of 32 for all bowlers
(https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._involve=1369;template=results;type=aggregate)

Steyn averaged 24 away from home vs an overall average of 36 for all bowlers
(https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...involve=47154;template=results;type=aggregate)

Ambrose averaged 21 away from home vs an overall average of 28 for all bowlers

(https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e..._involve=1884;template=results;type=aggregate)

The above could be an indication that (statistically at least), Imran and Steyn played in the least bowler friendly conditions in their away tests and relatively to their environment, their away averages are in the same ballpark or, in Steyn's case, arguably even better than the away averages of Marshall/Hadlee/Ambrose etc. even though Imran/Steyn's raw averages are marginally worse than those other bowlers.

Now, it is obviously true that part of this (in the case of Marshall) is because the other bowlers in his own lineup were so good that it would skew those numbers a bit. However,it doesnt change the overall point that the surface level averages donot paint an accurate picture. And as @trundler has pointed out before, Imran routinely put up as good/better numbers in the series he played against Marshall/Hadlee/Lillee.

If you still think Imran has a significantly worse away record than the other pacers, I'd like to hear it.

Whether or not given more opportunities he'd do worse is pure speculation. But what we do know is that in the limited tests their, overall he did fine.

But relative to the likes of Steyn and McGrath you'd say they're both better in Asia because they had better records there. They didn't, Ambrose actually averages less in Asia than both.

Coming to this, using a similar criteria, Ambrose played two series in Pakistan.

One was in 1997 where he was toothless and averaged 139 . The other was in 1990, in which he took 14 wickets @17. On the surface a legendary statistical performance. But this series ,unusally for Pakistan, was infamous for being a fast bowler's dream and everyone filled their boots. Some other pacers in that same series:

Wasim: 21 wickets @14
Waqar: 16 wickets @16
Bishop: 16 wickets @18
Imran : 4 wickets @ 13 in his late career batsman phase

Walsh and Marshall merely managed a bowling average of 27.

So no, I'm not buying for a second that Ambrose was anywhere near as good as Steyn or McGrath in Asia where they both bowled multiple amazing spells on flat decks in some otherwise high scoring series. You and kyear both need to look a bit deeper than just averages to understand the context in which these bowlers got their numbers.

 

[trundler]

Not Imran's fault, but not an equal comparison either

Is it enough to disregard the fact that he delivered big match winning performances everywhere and has more consistent averages everywhere than Steyn?

I'm not punishing Imran for standing out in his home conditions, I'm placing why he did into context.

He still stands out significantly at home though. You were trying to diminish his away record on a questionable basis too.

So saying England is generally good bowling conditions, especially in that era is debunked because of one series? The match in question was one where England didn't pass 200 in either innings, I'm a bit lost.
The last two matches could be seen as high scoring, but in fourth there was a flurry of wickets in both second innings and the last Pakistan batted well, but still effortlessly bowled out England in their first innings and ran out of steam in their second.

The match where Imran took 10 and made a difference was low scoring? Shocking. You have cause and effect the other way around. No other pace bowler did remotely as well on that tour. He took 21 wickets at 18 in 3 tests in England in 1982 also. Best bowler on either side by a significant margin including a MoTM performance where he took a 9fa and scored 65. His overall average is marred by marches in 1974 when he was a no rounder. So one high scoring series where he was the difference between 2 sides, another series where he was the MVP and one cherry popping experience. And yes, conditions do change significantly between seasons. Imran is clearly one of the best bowlers ever to bowl in England.

You did not address him outperforming Hadlee overall in NZ and Marshall in '88. His overall WI record is the best of his time too.

Also, do you think it is logical to rate Imran as a better bowlt if he had retired with an away average of 24 in around '88 even though he played in a different capacity from that point forward?

 

[subshakerz]

Coming to this, using a similar criteria, Ambrose played two series in Pakistan.

One was in 1997 where he was toothless and averaged 139 . The other was in 1990, in which he took 14 wickets @17. On the surface a legendary statistical performance. But this series ,unusally for Pakistan, was infamous for being a fast bowler's dream and everyone filled their boots. Some other pacers in that same series:

Wasim: 21 wickets @14
Waqar: 16 wickets @16
Bishop: 16 wickets @18
Imran : 4 wickets @ 13 in his late career batsman phase

Walsh and Marshall merely managed a bowling average of 27.

So no, I'm not buying for a second that Ambrose was anywhere near as good as Steyn or McGrath in Asia where they both bowled multiple amazing spells on flat decks in some otherwise high scoring series. You and kyear both need to look a bit deeper than just averages to understand the context in which these bowlers got their numbers.

Yes excellent this is what I have been trying to get across on Ambrose with much resistance.

 

[kyear2]

He has also admitted that biased umpiring, which is what his main contention regarding Imran's home record, was also a thing in NZ and Australia but the West Indian umpires who refused to give decisions in favour of Pakistan in '88 for fear of their own safety were not biased. Along with refusing to acknowledge or address Imran's successes away and the context surrounding his away record, one can see why kyear2's opinions on Imran are not taken seriously anymore.

Why would Benaud list him twice? He wasn't disqualified for how he played the game but the West Indians were.

I acknowledge Australia and New Zealand were known for bad umpiring. I've also said that at the end of the day Hadlee was still equally good home and away. Imran wasn't.

You keep brining up one series in '88 which I watched and recall out cry for Barker for decisions against both sides. But let's say all his bad decisions were against Pakistan, every single one. Are there any other series or incidents or history of bad umpiring in the west indies? And again at the end of the day, like Hadlee, Marshall was equally good home, again. Imran wasn't.

Yes Imran had successful series away, what's your point? He's a great bowler, where have I ever said he wasn't. Seriously, show me where I said he wasn't an ATG fast bowler... Anywhere since I was on this forum. So yes, Imran has successful series away from Pakistan, he's an amazing atg bowler, ranted somewhere between 6 and 8 8 for me, but according to you that's a veiled insult.

At the end of the day, Imran had a dip at the end of his career, so did Marshall, so did Richards, so did Ponting, so may Smith. But at the end of the day it equals out, somehow only his overseas record was impacted by this fall off. My apologies.

Is it really my opinion re Imran that isn't taken seriously anymore? Look at the poll of the thread were in. It now 40 to 11, it's gone up for Steyn since this convo started.

 

[kyear2]

Imran is ahead of all bar Marshall for me. Imran's away record is certainly more decorated than all bar Macko.

Ok, and that's your right. I wouldn't attack you for that
I think Ambrose is better, I think Holding is under rated these days and Garner is the best complimentary bowler ever and both are pretty close to Imran, but yeah would have to rate Imran over both, but not by that much. But that's just my opinion, yours is entitled to be different.

 

[Adorable Asshole]

I acknowledge Australia and New Zealand were known for bad umpiring. I've also said that at the end of the day Hadlee was still equally good home and away. Imran wasn't.

You keep brining up one series in '88 which I watched and recall out cry for Barker for decisions against both sides. But let's say all his bad decisions were against Pakistan, every single one. Are there any other series or incidents or history of bad umpiring in the west indies? And again at the end of the day, like Hadlee, Marshall was equally good home, again. Imran wasn't.

Yes Imran had successful series away, what's your point? He's a great bowler, where have I ever said he wasn't. Seriously, show me where I said he wasn't an ATG fast bowler... Anywhere since I was on this forum. So yes, Imran has successful series away from Pakistan, he's an amazing atg bowler, ranted somewhere between 6 and 8 8 for me, but according to you that's a veiled insult.

At the end of the day, Imran had a dip at the end of his career, so did Marshall, so did Richards, so did Ponting, so may Smith. But at the end of the day it equals out, somehow only his overseas record was impacted by this fall off. My apologies.

Is it really my opinion re Imran that isn't taken seriously anymore? Look at the poll of the thread were in. It now 40 to 11, it's gone up for Steyn since this convo started.

Nobody has a problem with you rating Steyn above Imran. Even I voted for Steyn.

The problems is you keep harping about his away record without any context and discrediting his home record on the basis of biased umpiring and ball tampering when that was also prevalent elsewhere.

And ball tampering was first done by England not Pakistan.

 

[kyear2]

Umm what do you have against Novak? Lol lol

Roger is my Trundler, Subs and ORS's Imran, So not generally anything substantive, but he was dick from the first time he beat Fed and I don't like the way he played the game at times.

So yes (un)warranted propaganda.

 

[trundler]

I acknowledge Australia and New Zealand were known for bad umpiring. I've also said that at the end of the day Hadlee was still equally good home and away. Imran wasn't.

@OverratedSanity pointed out why.

You keep brining up one series in '88 which I watched and recall out cry for Barker for decisions against both sides. But let's say all his bad decisions were against Pakistan, every single one. Are there any other series or incidents or history of bad umpiring in the west indies? And again at the end of the day, like Hadlee, Marshall was equally good home, again. Imran wasn't.

Averaging the same home and away is not the same as being equally good home and away. You point out Imran's averages in certain countries but don't respond to when it is pointed out he was still the best bowler on either side.

Yes Imran had successful series away, what's your point? He's a great bowler, where have I ever said he wasn't. Seriously, show me where I said he wasn't an ATG fast bowler... Anywhere since I was on this forum. So yes, Imran has successful series away from Pakistan, he's an amazing atg bowler, ranted somewhere between 6 and 8 8 for me, but according to you that's a veiled insult.

I'm trying to give you the context for why his somewhat higher averages don't tell the whole story. Nice way to circumvent specifics. You said Imran's average isn't as good as it should be in bowler friendly England and I let you know that he was the best bowler on either side, by a healthy margin, twice in a row and had one poor series very early in his career. You say his average of 26 in NZ isn't elite but he outperformed Hadlee.

At the end of the day, Imran had a dip at the end of his career, so did Marshall, so did Richards, so did Ponting, so may Smith. But at the end of the day it equals out, somehow only his overseas record was impacted by this fall off. My apologies.

Except it came between the ages 36-40 and when he played as a batting AR or batsmen. It is NOT a traditional decline and yes, Marshall was lucky to be phased out before it hurt his average too much. But that's just my opinion and not what we're discussing here. You didn't address this:

"Also, do you think it is logical to rate Imran as a better bowlt if he had retired with an away average of 24 in around '88 even though he played in a different capacity from that point forward"

Is it really my opinion re Imran that isn't taken seriously anymore?

Yes IMO. It's not this poll that we're debating but your poor arguments.

 

[Slifer]

Roger is my Trundler, Subs and ORS's Imran, So not generally anything substantive, but he was dick from the first time he beat Fed and I don't like the way he played the game at times.

So yes (un)warranted propaganda.

Hahaha

 

[kyear2]

Is it enough to disregard the fact that he delivered big match winning performances everywhere and has more consistent averages everywhere than Steyn?

He still stands out significantly at home though. You were trying to diminish his away record on a questionable basis too.

The match where Imran took 10 and made a difference was low scoring? Shocking. You have cause and effect the other way around. No other pace bowler did remotely as well on that tour. He took 21 wickets at 18 in 3 tests in England in 1982 also. Best bowler on either side by a significant margin including a MoTM performance where he took a 9fa and scored 65. His overall average is marred by marches in 1974 when he was a no rounder. So one high scoring series where he was the difference between 2 sides, another series where he was the MVP and one cherry popping experience. And yes, conditions do change significantly between seasons. Imran is clearly one of the best bowlers ever to bowl in England.

You did not address him outperforming Hadlee overall in NZ and Marshall in '88. His overall WI record is the best of his time too.

Also, do you think it is logical to rate Imran as a better bowlt if he had retired with an away average of 24 in around '88 even though he played in a different capacity from that point forward?

Will try here, though I will say that I'm not even sure what the argument is about. I think Imran is a great bowler, I, for various reasons rate 5 bowlers higher than him, about another 3 or 4 close to just below him, same ball park.

Steyn played in more batsman friendly era and conditions, to try to deny that is disingenuous. So yes he's rated because of what he had to deal with. It my opinion that I believe I'm entitled to.

Yes Imran stands out at home, without doubt he does, I believe it's impacted by biased home umpiring, you don't believe that to be the case, and I don't blame you, it's your compatriot. Your opinion isn't going to change, neither is mine. Does this make him an average or even great bowler, not even close, he's ATG regardless. I don't believe I'm trying to diminish his away record, I question why it's not as good as his home record, I never said it wasn't good, it's just not as good as some others, didn't mean he didn't have amazing performances abroad, he definitely did.

Look at the batting lineup he had to face compared to Hadlee, believe someone else already pointed this out.

If he retired in '88 he would have been rated the same as a bowler, but would have missed out on some big averaging years as a batsman. But even there, wouldn't have made a big difference as his record as an all rounder either.

 

[trundler]

Will try here, though I will say that I'm not even sure what the argument is about. I think Imran is a great bowler, I, for various reasons rate 5 bowlers higher than him, about another 3 or 4 close to just below him, same ball park.

Steyn played in more batsman friendly era and conditions, to try to deny that is disingenuous. So yes he's rated because of what he had to deal with. It my opinion that I believe I'm entitled to.

Yes Imran stands out at home, without doubt he does, I believe it's impacted by biased home umpiring, you don't believe that to be the case, and I don't blame you, it's your compatriot. Your opinion isn't going to change, neither is mine. Does this make him an average or even great bowler, not even close, he's ATG regardless. I don't believe I'm trying to diminish his away record, I question why it's not as good as his home record, I never said it wasn't good, it's just not as good as some others, didn't mean he didn't have amazing performances abroad, he definitely did.

Look at the batting lineup he had to face compared to Hadlee, believe someone else already pointed this out.

If he retired in '88 he would have been rated the same as a bowler, but would have missed out on some big averaging years as a batsman. But even there, wouldn't have made a big difference as his record as an all rounder either.

To summarise: you posted Imran's country wise averages to suggest he was not as effective away. This isn't true. He excelled everywhere and if you look at his averages in context, he's usually the best bowler on either side. He did not have high averages in helpful conditions. I pointed out how and why.

His away bowling average was 24.xx before the last phase. This meets the <25 = great criteria and I suspect many would rate Imran higher as a bowler if he had retired then. We are talking about his as a bowler here, not AR.

 

[kyear2]

To summarise: you posted Imran's country wise averages to suggest he was not as effective away. This isn't true. He excelled everywhere and if you look at his averages in context, he's usually the best bowler on either side. He did not have high averages in helpful conditions. I pointed out how and why.

His away bowling average was 24.xx before the last phase. This meets the <25 = great criteria and I suspect many would rate Imran higher as a bowler if he had retired then. We are talking about his as a bowler here, not AR.

To summerize as well, Imran was fine bowler, an ATG bowler who for me is a just a tier below some of his era and thereafter, but an elite performer.
He has a massive difference between his home and away performance, which simply does not exist among other ATG fast bowlers. This is especially complicated by the fact that his home conditions were less conducive to pace bowling than any other nation save possibly India, and considerably more difficult than those in Australia and especially England.
It has been long theorized by many that Imran's home record was some what enhanced by the "patriotic" local umpires and that would seem to be the one possible reason for the superb home performance which wasn't repeated to the same level elsewhere.
But Imran was immense, and deserves credit for his longevity, his mastery of reverse swing and his competitiveness vs the best team of his era.

 

[Prince EWS]

Is it really my opinion re Imran that isn't taken seriously anymore?

Yes IMO.

Savage.

 

[Coronis]

Not Imran's fault, but not an equal comparison either

I'm not punishing Imran for standing out in his home conditions, I'm placing why he did into context.

So saying England is generally good bowling conditions, especially in that era is debunked because of one series? The match in question was one where England didn't pass 200 in either innings, I'm a bit lost.
The last two matches could be seen as high scoring, but in fourth there was a flurry of wickets in both second innings and the last Pakistan batted well, but still effortlessly bowled out England in their first innings and ran out of steam in their second.

Additionally the West Indies travelled to England the following year and Birmingham aside played on the same pitches and routed England. But I'm guessing the conditions drastically changed during that time.

I do not have anti Imran sentiments, nor do I engage in propaganda against anyone not named Novak Djokovic or 2021 Max Verstappen. I just find it annoying that you'll ignore or sweep over the fact that he ball tampered and that more than most he benefitted from favorable home umpires. He basically acknowledged both in various forums, more indirectly for the latter, but yeah.
And as I've said, none of these factors drops him to anything less than the great champion he was.

Please point out any additional questions that I haven't answered, because it's a bit tough keeping up with the posts

Would also like to hear the Verstappen stuff

 

[kyear2]

Would also like to hear the Verstappen stuff

Max is a prodigy, but the way the season ended in 2021 was shameful and almost criminal.
Was blatantly obvious what the intent was and the fix was in.

 

[ankitj]

Look at the poll of the thread were in. It now 40 to 11, it's gone up for Steyn since this convo started.

I switched my vote to Imran based on this conversation fwiw.

 

[kyear2]

I switched my vote to Imran based on this conversation fwiw.

Congrats

 

[trundler]

To summerize as well, Imran was fine bowler, an ATG bowler who for me is a just a tier below some of his era and thereafter, but an elite performer.
He has a massive difference between his home and away performance, which simply does not exist among other ATG fast bowlers. This is especially complicated by the fact that his home conditions were less conducive to pace bowling than any other nation save possibly India, and considerably more difficult than those in Australia and especially England.
It has been long theorized by many that Imran's home record was some what enhanced by the "patriotic" local umpires and that would seem to be the one possible reason for the superb home performance which wasn't repeated to the same level elsewhere.
But Imran was immense, and deserves credit for his longevity, his mastery of reverse swing and his competitiveness vs the best team of his era.

I'm glad we've established Imran's away record is top class and that regurgitating his averages without context is a poor argument.

 

[Slifer]

Time to close this thread? 42-12 is pretty conclusive.