Ashwin vs Kumble

[Silver Silva]

Secondly , the Sri Lanka Ashwin faced was not incredibly weak to be a non factor in this debate and not one that can be compared to present day West Indies ..

On his first tour to SL in 2015 he faced Karunaratne, Sangakkara , Mathews and Chandimal ..
Karunaratne averages over 50 at home , Mathews 44 , Chandimal 48 , Sangakkara 60 .. There are some SENA nations that Kumble faced in a test that didn't have 4 or more batsmen averaging above 40 at home .

I hate to admit this , but Ashwin basically retired Kumar Sangakkara from Tests in that series ..
I have never seen a spinner bully Sangakkara like that in a home series ..Ashwin got him out 4 times in 4 innings ..We were all shocked watching this at home ..That's when I knew this Ashwin guy is special ..He has made some of the best left handers in the game look very ordinary ie. Sanga , Cook , Warner etc ..
And this was no Sangakkara on the wane , he scored close to 1500 test runs in a calender year the previous year, and early in the year he got an amazing double hundred in New Zealand at Basin Reserve ..


Its a series that doesn't get talked often enough because it was a great duel between two great spinners in Herath v Ashwin

 

[Saket1209]

as opposed to the mighty West Indies sides of the 2000s?

WI batting was good in 2000s. yeah they couldn't win matches just because they doesn't have a proper fast bowler. Bravo and Sammy was their fast bowler along with Taylor that's why they struggle to take wickets. But they have some decent batsman that time. Gayle, ChandraPaul, Sarwan, are better batsman than today's wi batsman.

 

[Bitmap]

Ashwin

 

[Slifer]

Abstain. But regarding the WI, Kumble played them at a time when at the very least they consistently had at least one batsman averaging 50+ (Lara) and several others averaging 40+. For example the last series wi won vs India in 2002 featured: Gayle, Sarwan, Lara, Chanderpaul and Hooper. That batting lineup is infinitely better than what the WI currently have. Just me 2 cents...

 

[Xix2565]

I think the idea that batting lineups matter more than bowling lineups is bunk tbh. You can't really cite 40+ batting averages without acknowledging the conditions in play at the time (pitch and bowlers they're facing) or ignore the effects of having an inferior bowling lineup when it comes to winning Test matches and series.

 

[Slifer]

Bowling or pitch conditions or not, a batting lineup of Lara , Chanderpaul, Hooper etc is infinitely better than WI now. I'm only talking about WI because that's the team I know the most about.

And Hooper under achieved but even he once managed to average 45 in a series featuring wasim, waqar and Saqlain. No west Indian batsman now is doing that. Chanderpaul and Lara need no introduction.

It's mentally obtuse to even think an atg like Lara would average in the 30s like the majority of WI batsmen now.

 

[Coronis]

It's mentally obtuse to even think an atg like Lara would average in the 30s like the majority of WI batsmen now.

Well he is pretty old.

 

[Shri]

Sangakara and Jayawardena vs Matthews and Chandimal. It's pretty clear.

actually ash played in a test series in SL when sanga played. he got 17 wickets in 2 tests at 16.35

 

[Daemon]

Kumble averages four runs less in SENA.

False, it's 37 vs 39.

It's really not like Kumble was awesome in SENA. More wickets and a marginally better average which can't make up for the complete domination by Ashwin everywhere else, especially in places where Kumble failed as well like Sri Lanka where he averaged 44.

In SENA Ashwin's done well in two BG series and has a good record in England. He's really only sucked big time in South Africa. Overall worse than Kumble imo, but there's not that much in it.

 

[Xix2565]

Bowling or pitch conditions or not, a batting lineup of Lara , Chanderpaul, Hooper etc is infinitely better than WI now. I'm only talking about WI because that's the team I know the most about.

And Hooper under achieved but even he once managed to average 45 in a series featuring wasim, waqar and Saqlain. No west Indian batsman now is doing that. Chanderpaul and Lara need no introduction.

It's mentally obtuse to even think an atg like Lara would average in the 30s like the majority of WI batsmen now.

Sure, but it's not like it helped them be better anymore than now when their bowling began to weaken. And this still ignores that averaging higher with the bat needs some decent batting conditions. I won't say it's a point in Kumble's favour simply because of that.

 

[Slifer]

Sure, but it's not like it helped them be better anymore than now when their bowling began to weaken. And this still ignores that averaging higher with the bat needs some decent batting conditions. I won't say it's a point in Kumble's favour simply because of that.

Decent batting conditions yes but not to the tune of 20 point difference in batting averages. And fwiw, I'm only talking about WI. But imo, now way is Ashwin averaging 10 (like he currently does) vs that lineup from 2002.

 

[ankitj]

It's really not like Kumble was awesome in SENA

Yeah all this praise of Kumble's record in SENA is really odd. He was pretty much a waste of space in SENA for almost all his career from memory. Looking up stats breakdown on Cricinfo may give you a different picture, I don't know

 

[CricAddict]

I feel sorry for Cummins who averages 30 in Asia and 20 at all other places. Unfortunately, he will only be rated for his performance in Asia and his performances in other places will not be considered at all. With that average, he won't even be an atvg let alone atg.

 

[subshakerz]

Kumble:

- Better in SENA

- To me, he would have done nearly as well as Ashwin at home if he had the same pitches throughout his career. Though I will concede Ashwin is the best home spinner after Murali.

- He faced generally batter quality batting lineups throughout his career which accounts for much of the average difference, as well as high quality players of spin in almost every lineup.

 

[honestbharani]

Ashwin > Kumble.

 

[Xix2565]

- He faced generally batter quality batting lineups throughout his career which accounts for much of the average difference, as well as high quality players of spin in almost every lineup.

So we've decided that quality of batters is completely unrelated to conditions available to them, I see. Incredibly dumb assumption to make.

 

[subshakerz]

Abstain. But regarding the WI, Kumble played them at a time when at the very least they consistently had at least one batsman averaging 50+ (Lara) and several others averaging 40+. For example the last series wi won vs India in 2002 featured: Gayle, Sarwan, Lara, Chanderpaul and Hooper. That batting lineup is infinitely better than what the WI currently have. Just me 2 cents...

This. Plus Kumble played a Pakistan lineup with Inzi, Yousuf and Younis. England were at least as strong as they are now in the 2000s. Australia were an ATG XI. SL has Sanga, Jaya and Sam. SA always a fairly strong lineup with good players of spin like Cullinan, Kirsten, and Cronje. NZ mostly sucked but Fleming was a great player of spin.

Overall batting quality was far ahead of what Ashwin faced.

 

[subshakerz]

So we've decided that quality of batters is completely unrelated to conditions available to them, I see. Incredibly dumb assumption to make.

No but you can establish yourself as a quality bat/player of spin over the course of a career in a variety of conditions.

 

[Xix2565]

No but you can establish yourself as a quality bat/player of spin over the course of a career in a variety of conditions.

Which you haven't established any batting lineup old or recent to be, and are avoiding to do so for reasons yet to be understood.

I understand subjectivity but I don't understand baseless nonsense with feelings and "Peer Reviews".

 

[honestbharani]

Which you haven't established any batting lineup old or recent to be, and are avoiding to do so for reasons yet to be understood.

I understand subjectivity but I don't understand baseless nonsense with feelings and "Peer Reviews".

..

Nah.. he will decide if he likes the kid or not and then grade based on that.