Is Ashwin an ATG spinner / player?

[subshakerz]

i decided to see his checklist analysis and looked at Kumble’s so called famed 5fers in sena

two were on the 2003/04 tour where it was all flat and he bowled a lot and got 2 5fers. 1 was in a win but he took three tailenders wickets for it. Kumble’s efforts were valiant in that series but as already pointed out he didn’t get the team to a win where as Ashwin did in 2 series when the conditions are worse for spinners

the other 5fer was against a fresh readmitted south africa team in 1992

No. Kumble took three fifers on the 2004 tour plus a 1st day fifer on the 2007 tour, and one in SA. Not great but better than Ashwin.

 

[Socerer 01]

No I blame him for Centurion as well.

you mean the same test where the SA spinner who is no mug picked up 1 wicket in total on this same tricky pitch you claim?

 

[Socerer 01]

No. Kumble took three fifers on the 2004 tour plus a 1st day fifer on the 2007 tour, and one in SA. Not great but better than Ashwin.

somehow glossed over them, thanks for pointing out

 

[subshakerz]

you mean the same test where the SA spinner who is no mug picked up 1 wicket in total on this same tricky pitch you claim?

Ashwin was getting good spin that game. He even took wickets in the 1st innings and I remember expecting him to rip through SA on day 4 to set up India. The SA batsmen werent comfy against him but they negotiated him. It didn't happen.

 

[Xix2565]

I watched those two games I am referring to in 2018. Centurion 2nd test, SA were teetering in the 2nd inning, Ashwin opened the bowling and yet couldn't break through despite a tricky pitch. In Southampton 4th test it was similar but worse, India had a lead, Ashwin opened yet again no impact on a helpful wicket. Both were crunch games and India lost the series.

Centurion was a pitch for pacers my dude. How is that a mark against Ashwin? This is like saying Australia's great batting lineup that everyone likes to hold up as a standard are frauds because on a batting friendly wicket they let Agarkar run through them at Adelaide. Come on, if you're going to use only a handful of sample sizes to nitpick then there's no value to this because it's too small to say anything. Let alone the circumstances for Southampton where he was injured and should've been rested.

 

[subshakerz]

Centurion was a pitch for pacers my dude. How is that a mark against Ashwin? This is like saying Australia's great batting lineup that everyone likes to hold up as a standard are frauds because on a batting friendly wicket they let Agarkar run through them at Adelaide. Come on, if you're going to use only a handful of sample sizes to nitpick then there's no value to this because it's too small to say anything. Let alone the circumstances for Southampton where he was injured and should've been rested.

I saw the game. Ashinw took wickets in the 1st innings. The pitch had variable bounce and Ashwin was getting sharp spin, hence why Kohli opened the bowling with him in the 2nd innings.

And these are just a couple of examples. There are several more. We had the famous test in 2014 where SA were on the mat chasing 400 odd and Ashwin misfired too. Etc., etc.

 

[Xix2565]

I saw the game. Ashinw took wickets in the 1st innings. The pitch had variable bounce and Ashwin was getting sharp spin, hence why Kohli opened the bowling with him in the 2nd innings.

It was still a pacers' wicket, unless you feel that the other bowlers in the game don't exist anymore. And it is still one failure that is being used to judge his status. Hardly a convincing argument.

 

[subshakerz]

It was still a pacers' wicket, unless you feel that the other bowlers in the game don't exist anymore. And it is still one failure that is being used to judge his status. Hardly a convincing argument.

Except I showed how it was supporting Ashwin's bowling.

There are more examples. Wanderers 2013 and in SA in 2021. All prime opportunities to bowl out a team in the 4th innings.

 

[ma1978]

The Ganguly / Dravid / Dhoni teams were menaingnfully weaker than the Kohli / Rahane / Sharma teams. Ashwin is a big reason why

also the 5fer argument is pointless because it’s entirely dependent on who the other bowlers are

 

[ma1978]

Has a spinner ever run through a side in the fourth innings in SA?

 

[trundler]

Has a spinner ever run through a side in the fourth innings in SA?

Warne

SA vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Durban, March 24 - 28, 2006

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, SA vs AUS, Australia tour of South Africa 2005/06 at Kingsmead, Durban dated March 24 - 28, 2006.

www.espncricinfo.com

Herath

SA vs SL Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Durban, December 26 - 29, 2011

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, SA vs SL, Sri Lanka tour of South Africa 2011/12 at Kingsmead, Durban dated December 26 - 29, 2011.

www.espncricinfo.com

Mushtaq

SA vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Durban, February 26 - March 02, 1998

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, SA vs PAK, Pakistan tour of South Africa 1997/98 at Kingsmead, Durban dated February 26 - March 02, 1998.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[ma1978]

Twice in a 30 year modern test history

 

[trundler]

Twice in a 30 year modern test history

There's more. Mostly at Durban. These are the ones I could remember.

PS: Don't care about the Ashwin debate. He's ATG for me.

 

[ataraxia]

Remember when Maharaj and Harmer destroyed Bangladesh... at home?

 

[trundler]

Remember when Maharaj and Harmer destroyed Bangladesh... at home?

Haha yeah was such a fun but weird series in bizarro land. Taijul did well too iirc.

 

[subshakerz]

Warne

SA vs AUS Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Durban, March 24 - 28, 2006

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, SA vs AUS, Australia tour of South Africa 2005/06 at Kingsmead, Durban dated March 24 - 28, 2006.

www.espncricinfo.com

Herath

SA vs SL Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Durban, December 26 - 29, 2011

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, SA vs SL, Sri Lanka tour of South Africa 2011/12 at Kingsmead, Durban dated December 26 - 29, 2011.

www.espncricinfo.com

Mushtaq

SA vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 2nd Test at Durban, February 26 - March 02, 1998

Get cricket scorecard of 2nd Test, SA vs PAK, Pakistan tour of South Africa 1997/98 at Kingsmead, Durban dated February 26 - March 02, 1998.

www.espncricinfo.com

Though India didn't win, would also add Harbi who took a 7-fer in 2011 and the test before he set up a victory in Durban.

Murali took a 11-fer in the early 2000s.

Swann took a 5-fer in the 3rd innings to win for England in the late 2000s.

Ajmal took a 10-fer in SA as well to nearly win for Pakistan.

Point is, spinners are expected to play a role there.

 

[trundler]

I didn't watch the 2018 series but last time around the pitches had absolutely nothing in them for spinners. There's usually something to work with on the flatter decks that wear out though.

 

[Bolo.]

Ashwin was getting good spin that game. He even took wickets in the 1st innings and I remember expecting him to rip through SA on day 4 to set up India. The SA batsmen werent comfy against him but they negotiated him. It didn't happen.

This is one innings. Looking at a single failure is meaningless. You could point out 20 more for Ashwin and it still wouldn't mean anything, cos there will be 21 for Kumble.

I can't remember if there was good turn this game, but pitches in the Highveld do sometimes turn. It doesn't make them a tough place to play spin. In the next series at the Wanderers, Nathan Lyon of all people was turning it about as big as I have ever seen any spinner manage anywhere, and he went for 300ish runs in the game.

In this one innings, the quicks ripped through RSA. He bowled 29 overs. 4/5 of Kumble's 5fers took 43+ overs. Ashwin almost never got an opportunity to bowl this many- he typically played with much better bowlers and worse bats.

5fers are a completely meaningless stat without context. Kumble bowled almost twice as many overs in SENA, and whether or not he was a better bowler there, the reason he bowled more there was not cos he was better.

Even with very comparable circumstances 5fers need a ton of context. Philander got more 5fers than Steyn when they played together. Nobody has ever claimed this made Philander better. Why do it for bowlers that had vastly different circumstances?

 

[trundler]

Not including WI and SL in Ashwin's record is dumb af too. Those teams are not pushovers and the reason why India make short work of them is largely because of Ashwin. I've watched a lot of Lyon and Maharaj in SL and they have not been as deadly there as Ashwin. Mostly 6-150-180 type match hauls.

 

[subshakerz]

This is one innings. Looking at a single failure is meaningless. You could point out 20 more for Ashwin and it still wouldn't mean anything, cos there will be 21 for Kumble.

I can't remember if there was good turn this game, but pitches in the Highveld do sometimes turn. It doesn't make them a tough place to play spin. In the next series at the Wanderers, Nathan Lyon of all people was turning it about as big as I have ever seen any spinner manage anywhere, and he went for 300ish runs in the game.

In this one innings, the quicks ripped through RSA. He bowled 29 overs. 4/5 of Kumble's 5fers took 43+ overs. Ashwin almost never got an opportunity to bowl this many- he typically played with much better bowlers and worse bats.

5fers are a completely meaningless stat without context. Kumble bowled almost twice as many overs in SENA, and whether or not he was a better bowler there, the reason he bowled more there was not cos he was better.

Even with very comparable circumstances 5fers need a ton of context. Philander got more 5fers than Steyn when they played together. Nobody has ever claimed this made Philander better. Why do it for bowlers that had vastly different circumstances?

- 5fer is merely a demonstration of an ability to run through a batting order on your day

- Ashwin did have opportunities in SENA to run through a batting order when it mattered, and didn't. Kumble did on occasion. All of those examples mentioned were to show you circumstances in which other spinners have done that in SENA. So it's missing from Ashwin's side.

- To quote Ashwin himself: 'I have not been able to get a five-for but he has a five-for in Australia. I know how big it is.' it's not an arbitrary thing.