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The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

ataraxia

ataraxia

International Coach
_00_deathscar said:
Nah his team still lost plenty, considering the guy was basically 2 batsmen.
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All those bad players in his team must have really weighed it down ... oh wait, there were none. There were 11 good players. The difference between Gilchrist and Tallon is arguably huge though.

I would say, though, that the Invincibles might be 'stronger' than 00s Aus but still get worse results, because of the overreliance on Bradman.
 
N

number11

State Regular
All time Pakistan test xi (no post CW caveat). Post cw period amendments in (name) format.

Anwar
H. Mohammed (A. Ali)
Younus Khan
Miandad
Inzamam
Imran Khan *
Sarfraz/Rizwan +
Akram
Waqar
Saqlain
Akhtar

It's an excellent side. Pk suffer from not having an outstanding wkt/bat. Sarfraz or Rizwan can bat but are only ok wkt. Bari was a brilliant keeper but poor bat.

Bowling is absurdly strong. At home, Akhtar may make way for Qadir. In time Babar Azam slots in.
 
P

peterhrt

U19 Captain
In 1971 The Cricketer magazine celebrated its 50th anniversary by asking four eminent senior figures to choose their greatest twenty cricketers since 1921. The four were Ames, Gubby Allen, O'Reilly and Fingleton. Bradman was invited but declined.

All four played most of their cricket during the 1930s, so one might expect a weighting towards that time and towards England and Australia. Ames and Allen later became selectors and administrators, the two Australians respected journalists.

All four judges voted for nine players: Bradman, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Compton, Headley, Sobers, Lindwall and Tate.

Three votes were given to O'Reilly (was told to vote for himself but refused), Grimmett, Larwood, Bedser and McCabe.

Two nominations: Macartney, Ponsford, May, Worrell, Miller, Evans, Laker.

One: Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock, Weekes, Harvey, Hassett, Sutcliffe, Woolley, Leyland, Duleepsinhji, Rhodes, Trueman, Statham, Mailey, Freeman.

With 21 cricketers receiving two or more nominations, editor Swanton had to remove one to leave an overall Top 20. He removed Laker on the grounds of meeting "only limited success outside England."

Fingleton's comments were the most interesting, especially when quoting Herbie Collins' opinion that Headley was the most complete batsman he ever saw. Fingleton signed off by saying: "I must stress, finally, that statistics didn't matter a tinker's cuss with me. I estimated capacity and individualism. I looked at the subject in memory's eye."
 
N

number11

State Regular
Alternative XI (2nd XI?)

A. Ali
W. Raja
B. Azam *
Z. Abbas
M. Yousuf
M. Mohammed
Moin Khan +
Fazal Mahmood
Shaheen
Qadir
M. Asif

In time Shaheen will move to the 1st XI I assume. Ditto Azam. Mushtaq is there as a (sort of) AR. Pace bowling is solid. Pk have had a lot of good ones.

May well be missing some choices.
 
N

number11

State Regular
AT Indian test XI (no caveats):

Gavaskar
Sehwag
Dravid
Tendulkar
Kohli
Mankad [Laxman]
Dhoni + *
Ashwin
Dev
Kumble
Bumrah

Incredible at home. Lots of flexibility. Kumble and Ashwin backed by Mankad. Dev and Bumrah are solid pacers.

Post post CW alts in [x].

Away, Ashwin goes. Srinath comes in and bats at 10.
 
Coronis

Coronis

International Coach
peterhrt said:
In 1971 The Cricketer magazine celebrated its 50th anniversary by asking four eminent senior figures to choose their greatest twenty cricketers since 1921. The four were Ames, Gubby Allen, O'Reilly and Fingleton. Bradman was invited but declined.

All four played most of their cricket during the 1930s, so one might expect a weighting towards that time and towards England and Australia. Ames and Allen later became selectors and administrators, the two Australians respected journalists.

All four judges voted for nine players: Bradman, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Compton, Headley, Sobers, Lindwall and Tate.

Three votes were given to O'Reilly (was told to vote for himself but refused), Grimmett, Larwood, Bedser and McCabe.

Two nominations: Macartney, Ponsford, May, Worrell, Miller, Evans, Laker.

One: Barry Richards, Graeme Pollock, Weekes, Harvey, Hassett, Sutcliffe, Woolley, Leyland, Duleepsinhji, Rhodes, Trueman, Statham, Mailey, Freeman.

With 21 cricketers receiving two or more nominations, editor Swanton had to remove one to leave an overall Top 20. He removed Laker on the grounds of meeting "only limited success outside England."

Fingleton's comments were the most interesting, especially when quoting Herbie Collins' opinion that Headley was the most complete batsman he ever saw. Fingleton signed off by saying: "I must stress, finally, that statistics didn't matter a tinker's cuss with me. I estimated capacity and individualism. I looked at the subject in memory's eye."
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The wankfest for Richards is really insane. Also lol removing a bloke with 2 noms vs any of the blokes with 1 nom.
 
The Sean

The Sean

Cricketer Of The Year
Coronis said:
The wankfest for Richards is really insane. Also lol removing a bloke with 2 noms vs any of the blokes with 1 nom.
Click to expand...
For the top 20, all the blokes with one vote were already eliminated. There were 21 players with two or more votes, so one of them had to go.
 
P

peterhrt

U19 Captain
For an idea of the establishment view at the time, The Cricketer complemented their selection with a similar exercise six years later when Arlott, Swanton and Frith chose all-time England and Australia teams shortly before the Centenary Test. They have already been posted here but are repeated for information:

England: Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Compton, Woolley, Ames+, Tate, Larwood, Rhodes, Laker, Barnes. (Rhodes' batting was ignored.)

Australia: Trumper, Simpson, Bradman, Macartney, Harvey, Miller, Oldfield+, Lindwall, Trumble, Lillee, O'Reilly.

From the 1921-71 timeframe, only Simpson and wicket-keepers Oldfield and Ames did not receive votes in 1971, and Simpson only just made this side ahead of Ponsford on the grounds that he was more comfortable against fast bowling.

It is still Larwood and Tate ahead of Trueman. No mention in either exercise of the likes of Davidson or Barrington. They weren't even considered. Team balance meant no third opener in Hutton.

English writers were as certain of their top five English batsmen (Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Compton) as Indians are of theirs today (Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli).
 
N

number11

State Regular
peterhrt said:
For an idea of the establishment view at the time, The Cricketer complemented their selection with a similar exercise six years later when Arlott, Swanton and Frith chose all-time England and Australia teams shortly before the Centenary Test. They have already been posted here but are repeated for information:

England: Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Compton, Woolley, Ames+, Tate, Larwood, Rhodes, Laker, Barnes. (Rhodes' batting was ignored.)

Australia: Trumper, Simpson, Bradman, Macartney, Harvey, Miller, Oldfield+, Lindwall, Trumble, Lillee, O'Reilly.

From the 1921-71 timeframe, only Simpson and wicket-keepers Oldfield and Ames did not receive votes in 1971, and Simpson only just made this side ahead of Ponsford on the grounds that he was more comfortable against fast bowling.

It is still Larwood and Tate ahead of Trueman. No mention in either exercise of the likes of Davidson or Barrington. They weren't even considered. Team balance meant no third opener in Hutton.

English writers were as certain of their top five English batsmen (Grace, Hobbs, Hammond, Hutton, Compton) as Indians are of theirs today (Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Kohli).
Click to expand...
A similar exercise today would be interesting.
 
P

peterhrt

U19 Captain
number11 said:
A similar exercise today would be interesting.
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Some more recent ones:

2009 England [Cricinfo - 10 English journalists]: Hobbs, Hutton, Hammond, Barrington, Pietersen, Botham, Knott+, Larwood, Trueman, Underwood, Barnes.
7 changes from 1977

2009 Australia [Cricinfo - 10 Australian journalists]: Trumper, Morris, Bradman, Greg Chappell, Border, Miller, Gilchrist+, Warne, Lillee, O'Reilly, McGrath.
6 changes from 1977

2020 England [The Roar, Australian website]: Hobbs, Hutton*, Hammond, Compton, Barrington, Botham, Knott+, Trueman, Underwood, Anderson, Barnes.
2 changes from 2009 (one new player Anderson, one reverting to 1977 team Compton)

2020 Australia [The Roar, Australian website]: Trumper, Simpson, Bradman*, Greg Chappell, Steve Smith, Miller, Gilchrist+, Warne, Lillee, Spofforth, McGrath.
3 changes from 2009 (one new player Smith, one reverting to 1977 team Simpson, plus Spofforth for O'Reilly)
 
Last edited:
Spark

Spark

Global Moderator
The_CricketUmpire said:
What sort of formula/decision making are you using to come up with these new figures?

Cheers.
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Cribbage's Standardised Test Averages (UPDATED November 2018 - posts 753-755)

We have a couple of threads around for standardised averages and I know I've leaked some of this work into other threads at times, but I've made it into a full-blown project over the past couple of months so I thought I'd start a thread for it. Introduction The average - be it batting or...
www.cricketweb.net
 
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