*Official* First Test (Edgbaston, Birmingham) 16–20 June

[RossTaylorsBox]

Exactly! Which is why it’s preposterous to expect a batting line-up that was failing to sort all their problems out by going on the attack! It takes time, but the attitude is to be positive and it’s a massive improvement!

Yeah but I don't just think their new brand is something you can easily tinker around the edges with.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Hi all - New forum member here. I've been reading this thread throughout the test and it has really added to the enjoyment of the whole thing, so thank you everyone!

As an England supporter I am generally a fan of Stokes as captain. However, what I find off-putting is the ambivalence at the heart of his approach.

On the one hand, he sometimes says, 'we are hyper-aggressive because we want to win at all costs, and will therefore take higher risk options if they increase our chances of winning, even if they also increase our chances of losing'. That is a totally respectable approach and I am on board for it. If you understand the first-day declaration in that spirit then I think you can respect the idea of it, even if you think it was a bad call. Similarly, dropping Foakes as wicket-keeper was (I think) a bad call if your main aim is to win games. But I can respect the thought process. I agree with the strategy, even if I disagree with some of the tactics.

On the other hand, he often says, 'we aren't results-orientated, and our primary aim is to entertain; if that means losing, so be it'. He (and others) then point to the fifth day drama as evidence that this approach is working. I really dislike this approach. We all love dramatic finishes, but the drama has to develop organically. If Stokes is making captaincy decisions to create drama, then the whole thing feels a bit artificial and detracts from the experience. If Stokes declared on day-one because he is 'not results orientated', then it is not a decision I can respect, and I can understand why people view it as arrogant and performative. It also feels dishonest to me, because I can't believe that all these elite sportspeople are not bothered whether they win or lose.

I am not much of a fan of T20 cricket, and a big part of the reason for that is that the drama does feel confected. A lot of T20 games turn on extremely fine margins, but that is because the format of the game is designed to create those fine margins. As such, I can't get too excited about last-ball drama in T20. Stokes wants to 'save test cricket', but if he is doing it by confecting drama, then he is making it more like T20. Lots of people love T20 so maybe that is fine, but it doesn't appeal to me.

I rationalise all of this for myself by believing that Stokes is genuinely trying to win, and the stuff about not being results-orientated is a front to try and remove pressure from the team. But if so I wish he would just be clear about it and say, 'our goal is to win every game, and that will sometimes mean that we take high risk options. I also believe that we play at our best when we are not afraid to lose, so as a team we are developing a culture where we are not afraid of failure'. If he said that I would feel less ambivalent about the whole thing.

Anyway, thanks again for the thread! Looking forward to the rest of the summer.

Stokes isn't even English, probably why he doesn't care so much if they win or lose tbh

 

[Molehill]

Stokes isn't even English, probably why he doesn't care so much if they win or lose tbh

I mean he has been quite influential in winning 2 World Cups.

He definitely cares about winning, he just doesn't seem to care quite as much as most fans about losing. The draw is seemingly not really an option to him.

 

[Socerer 01]

Stokes isn't even English, probably why he doesn't care so much if they win or lose tbh

this is just bait for the carty dude isn’t it

 

[Woodster]

Yeah but I don't just think their new brand is something you can easily tinker around the edges with.

That’s the balance and that’s the challenge they face. Maybe they won’t try and balance it and keep just going with this approach. Very hard to second guess what Stokes and Baz will do.

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Whats up with Chris Jordan dissing Stokes

 

[TheJediBrah]

this is just bait for the carty dude isn’t it

It's non selective

 

[social]

[QUOTE="Molehill, post: 4983956, member: 47932"

Aus look utterly reliant on Cummins, if England can see him off and gradually make him bowl more overs than he wants to, then by the end of the series he could be on his knees.
[/QUOTE]

Haze & Starc are both returning from long layoffs and should be better for their recent tests.
Barring a massive injury toll, our only depth issue is at opener

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

It really isn't though

what do you know? you dont play mafia

 

[AndyZaltzHair]

Stokes isn't even English, probably why he doesn't care so much if they win or lose tbh

rubbish post

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Did England earn the right to be aggressive?

 

[Burgey]

TikTok - Make Your Day

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Stokes isn't even English, probably why he doesn't care so much if they win or lose tbh

He's a Cantab so loves to win, and a ranga so loves to fight.

 

[Qlder]

Big shake up in the batting rankings after this test. Root back to #1 (Aus still have 4 in top 7 though)

 

[Victor Ian]

what a ****ing game!

That Australia won, makes me love the day 1 declaration even more. I like the oddity of it - not that I think it is a great move.

I'm rather disappointed I didn't get to see the Smith show roll on. I thought he was back in town after last week. There is a lot of potential improvement for Australia. Smith and Labu, and Hazelwood has a game under his belt now. Same for England. I mean, how many catches can bairstow drop? I hope the other matches are as entertaining! (not really - I'd prefer Australia steamroll it in, but if it's not going to be Australia in 3 days, then let's have more of this.)

 

[Son Of Coco]

Surely if you had anti-muslim tweets surface and get you in hot water (and any common sense) you wouldn't be going after the 1 muslim guy in the opposition. Not a great look.

Reckon he's just a moron tbh

Yeah, he's clearly an absolute ****wit.

Imagine going spare at someone after you've taken your first wicket in 18 overs, and it's a bloke who has scored 140.

Although in Ollie's defence, he might have mistakenly thought he was tweeting instead of talking.

 

[Nintendo]

[QUOTE="Molehill, post: 4983956, member: 47932"

Aus look utterly reliant on Cummins, if England can see him off and gradually make him bowl more overs than he wants to, then by the end of the series he could be on his knees.

Haze & Starc are both returning from long layoffs and should be better for their recent tests.
Barring a massive injury toll, our only depth issue is at opener
[/QUOTE]
Neser is in the squad. abbott's currently playing county and doing well. Given that both morris and jhye are injured the fact we have starc and neser on the bench plus extra ready is good depth, no?

 

[social]

Haze & Starc are both returning from long layoffs and should be better for their recent tests.
Barring a massive injury toll, our only depth issue is at opener

Neser is in the squad. abbott's currently playing county and doing well. Given that both morris and jhye are injured the fact we have starc and neser on the bench plus extra ready is good depth, no?
[/QUOTE]

Plus we have Spencer Johnson ready to roll

 

[Spark]

Hi all - New forum member here. I've been reading this thread throughout the test and it has really added to the enjoyment of the whole thing, so thank you everyone!

As an England supporter I am generally a fan of Stokes as captain. However, what I find off-putting is the ambivalence at the heart of his approach.

On the one hand, he sometimes says, 'we are hyper-aggressive because we want to win at all costs, and will therefore take higher risk options if they increase our chances of winning, even if they also increase our chances of losing'. That is a totally respectable approach and I am on board for it. If you understand the first-day declaration in that spirit then I think you can respect the idea of it, even if you think it was a bad call. Similarly, dropping Foakes as wicket-keeper was (I think) a bad call if your main aim is to win games. But I can respect the thought process. I agree with the strategy, even if I disagree with some of the tactics.

On the other hand, he often says, 'we aren't results-orientated, and our primary aim is to entertain; if that means losing, so be it'. He (and others) then point to the fifth day drama as evidence that this approach is working. I really dislike this approach. We all love dramatic finishes, but the drama has to develop organically. If Stokes is making captaincy decisions to create drama, then the whole thing feels a bit artificial and detracts from the experience. If Stokes declared on day-one because he is 'not results orientated', then it is not a decision I can respect, and I can understand why people view it as arrogant and performative. It also feels dishonest to me, because I can't believe that all these elite sportspeople are not bothered whether they win or lose.

I am not much of a fan of T20 cricket, and a big part of the reason for that is that the drama does feel confected. A lot of T20 games turn on extremely fine margins, but that is because the format of the game is designed to create those fine margins. As such, I can't get too excited about last-ball drama in T20. Stokes wants to 'save test cricket', but if he is doing it by confecting drama, then he is making it more like T20. Lots of people love T20 so maybe that is fine, but it doesn't appeal to me.

I rationalise all of this for myself by believing that Stokes is genuinely trying to win, and the stuff about not being results-orientated is a front to try and remove pressure from the team. But if so I wish he would just be clear about it and say, 'our goal is to win every game, and that will sometimes mean that we take high risk options. I also believe that we play at our best when we are not afraid to lose, so as a team we are developing a culture where we are not afraid of failure'. If he said that I would feel less ambivalent about the whole thing.

Anyway, thanks again for the thread! Looking forward to the rest of the summer.

Quality post this. It's felt very broadcaster-friendly drama which is rarely the same thing as healthy sporting drama long-term. Rawalpindi was great because that legitimately the only forseeable way they could get a result on that thing, but the declaration here and the follow-on decision in NZ didn't feel that way at all to me. They just felt "aggressive" for its own sake. I do take Stokes at his word that he just wanted that little period at stumps to bowl at in which case it's just a mistake rather than performative though.

 

[Spark]

Big shake up in the batting rankings after this test. Root back to #1 (Aus still have 4 in top 7 though)

I honestly don't get how Marnus was so high. He didn't really do anything in India any he didn't do really anything last week either.