Official - Road to Ashes 2023

[Starfighter]

Trundler said:

You quoted this exact post, and replied

...but what you said doesn't disprove trundler's point at all? Trundler thinks that the better players in County Div 1 would be good enough to make Shield teams. How is Harris, who dominates the Shield and makes Aus Test squads and gets middling County gigs evidence that Trundler is talking nonsense, when it seems to actually support his point?

No, the crux of what he wrote was in the post you just quoted:

England's fringe test players would be far above the mean in Shield.

In the context here, they wouldn't.

 

[the big bambino]

Sure. He's pretty much Jennings for Australia. There's a wide chasm between good FC cricketer and test standard. That gap is not narrower for Shield cricket such that only the best English cricketers would make FC teams in Australia.

So far your criticism of Harris is that he's done well in the shield and county cricket. Are you sure you have a point to offer? last time England were out here they had Hameed and Burns. They would've been torched in the shield too.

 

[Spark]

There are surely a lot of county sides that were better than the teams NSW were rolling out last season, purely based on the fact that NSW were (are?) ****ing filth right now when shorn of their internationals.

 

[trundler]

You're missing the point that you're not going to contract an overseas player just because they're better than one of your worst players, ie good enough to make the team. For it to be worthwhile they have to more or less dominate. This is why guys like Viv and Botham played. Nowadays there's not enough money in the Shield for players good enough to dominate to want to play, and there's no motivation for the Shield sides to give up one of 66 spots in the country to an international journeyman who's going to a middling player.

Okay, I took your post to mean only England's best players would make Shield sides on they're merits, not that they would be the only ones worth contacting. Given your record of over rating Shield you can see why I jumped the gun though it did give allow for Starfighter to embarrass himself with his grumpy old man shtick despite being wrong.

 

[trundler]

So far your criticism of Harris is that he's done well in the shield and county cricket. Are you sure you have a point to offer? last time England were out here they had Hameed and Burns. They would've been torched in the shield too.

Haha, no they wouldn't have. They would be better than Caleb Jewell and such at the very least.

 

[Starfighter]

Okay, I took your post to mean only England's best players would make Shield sides on they're merits, not that they would be the only ones worth contacting. Given your record of over rating Shield you can see why I jumped the gun though it did give allow for Starfighter to embarrass himself with his grumpy old man shtick despite being wrong.

You seem to make a real game of deliberately misconstruing and ignoring what I write in order to make a smug jab.

 

[Brook's side]

fight
fight
fight
fight
fight
fight
fight
fight

 

[trundler]

You seem to make a real game of deliberately misconstruing and ignoring what I write in order to make a smug jab.

Try reading what I said again. I'll break it down: the best Div 1 cricketers excluding test regulars would still be pretty good in the Shield given the Shield's best is Marcus Harris. Pretty easy to understand and you've offered nothing relevant to this point.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Okay, I took your post to mean only England's best players would make Shield sides on they're merits, not that they would be the only ones worth contacting. Given your record of over rating Shield you can see why I jumped the gun though it did give allow for Starfighter to embarrass himself with his grumpy old man shtick despite being wrong.

That's just like, your opinion, man. Anyway I'm not claiming that it's particularly strong right now. But **** me it was 20-25 years ago. Still haven't figured out why that triggers you so much.

 

[trundler]

That's just like, your opinion, man. Anyway I'm not claiming that it's particularly strong right now. But **** me it was 20-25 years ago. Still haven't figured out why that triggers you so much.

Don't let that distract you from the fact that Bevan regularly got bounced out by the likes of Mark Ealham in tests

 

[Nintendo]

Try reading what I said again. I'll break it down: the best Div 1 cricketers excluding test regulars would still be pretty good in the Shield given the Shield's best is Marcus Harris. Pretty easy to understand and you've offered nothing relevant to this point.

Jason sangha is a middle tier batsmen in a team that got the wooden spoon last shield season, is it really that impressive to say that arguably the best middle order non international capped bat in div 1 county is better than him? Also, on the harris point, harris has been poor at test level but he's dominated FC tier attacks in both the shield and div 1 and 2 county for years now. Name me a county opener in div 1 who's better than him. Compton maybe? I can't think of many.

 

[Line and Length]

Very few county players, and only 50% of England's Test squad would make it into the current WA Shield side. NSW would be another story

 

[TheJediBrah]

Marcus Harris might not make it into the WA Shield side either. Bit of a stretch but another fun fact is that Harris had to leave WA to get a regular game in the first place

 

[Starfighter]

Try reading what I said again. I'll break it down: the best Div 1 cricketers excluding test regulars would still be pretty good in the Shield given the Shield's best is Marcus Harris. Pretty easy to understand and you've offered nothing relevant to this point.

You specifically asserted the following:

England's fringe test players would be far above the mean in Shield.

The Sheffield Shield having different priorities doesn't mean fringe test players with international experience wouldn't walk over FC journeyman as they always do.

Now in the context of fringe test players in the context of the discussion - openers - we have people like Jennings, Sibley, Hameed and Burns. You can find their career averages, built up over a long period. Now bear in mind that they are going to face environmental challenges - Burns for instance really struggles with bounce.

There is nothing in anything they've done to suggest they could stand out from the mid thirties average batsmen in the shield in the way you specifically say, unless you use Humpty-Dumpty definitions.

Saying that something is irrelevant does not, in fact, mean it is.

 

[Molehill]

Very few county players, and only 50% of England's Test squad would make it into the current WA Shield side. NSW would be another story

I don't want to cause an argument here, but the team that won the Final had one Test player in it and that was the much maligned Bancroft who has never really set the world alight in County Cricket.

 

[Starfighter]

Jason sangha is a middle tier batsmen in a team that got the wooden spoon last shield season, is it really that impressive to say that arguably the best middle order non international capped bat in div 1 county is better than him? Also, on the harris point, harris has been poor at test level but he's dominated FC tier attacks in both the shield and div 1 and 2 county for years now. Name me a county opener in div 1 who's better than him. Compton maybe? I can't think of many.

Bringing up NSW selection also betrays ignorance considering there's a constant torrent of complaint here about NSW selecting players who've not proven themselves at grade or second XI level and are being selected because of their 'youth' over more deserving players.

 

[trundler]

You specifically asserted the following:




Now in the context of fringe test players in the context of the discussion - openers - we have people like Jennings, Sibley, Hameed and Burns. You can find their career averages, built up over a long period. Now bear in mind that they are going to face environmental challenges - Burns for instance really struggles with bounce.

There is nothing in anything they've done to suggest they could stand out from the mid thirties average batsmen in the shield in the way you specifically say.

Saying that something is irrelevant does not, in fact, mean it is.

It was never about just openers. Besides, Teague Wyllie just played for Australia A and Caleb Jewell has 35 matches under his belt so I struggle to see why how they would be difficult to displace for someone like Compton or Jennings. It was about the relative merits of cricketers who dominate Sheffield Shield and County Cricket. The idea put forth was that random State level cricketers can turn up in CC and dominate but only the best English players would do well in Shield. I've explained why this is improbable and you're free to read that again as I'm not disposed to pointlessly repeating myself with more words like you.

 

[Nintendo]

Marcus Harris might not make it into the WA Shield side either. Bit of a stretch but another fun fact is that Harris had to leave WA to get a regular game in the first place

Harris definitely makes the WA shield side, there #3 is a 19 yo who averages 25 in fc cricket atm.

 

[social]

Harris continues to fail

Neser with 6/29 including a hat trick

OZ selectors don’t go changing

 

[Brook's side]

Very few county players, and only 50% of England's Test squad would make it into the current WA Shield side. NSW would be another story

50% of England's test squad is more than 11 players, so that's not bad going.