The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[ataraxia]

Hi @HookShot, what about on Jadeja?

Hazare's bowling dropped off incredibly between FC and Test; I think it's quite often ignored but also 5th bowler not quite.

A 4 bowler India attack is fine IMO but with two spinners, two pacers. Collected ramblings end.

 

[ankitj]

Must confess to being a bit of a VVS Laxman fan because he was one of the few Indian batsman that looked so good on Australian pitches (average 44),

All Indian batsmen of the generation did fine in Australia. Even Sehwag has a good average.

 

[Xix2565]

So I think that the best way to go is to pack the batting, score 400+, and then hope that Kapil, Khan and Gupte can put the opposition batting order under pressure. Still not sure about Shami, but the other bowlers are class and shouldn’t be underestimated.

That's basically asking them to lose though. You're not going to win many games with that sort of bowling lineup, especially when there are other better options to take wickets and balance the side. You're also asking them to make at least 300 vs ATG bowling lineups, which is really difficult to pull off consistently even for the best of lineups.

A 4 bowler India attack is fine IMO but with two spinners, two pacers. Collected ramblings end.

I'd only feel confident about 4 man attacks if we're discussing WI or AUS ATG XIs.

 

[Socerer 01]

if Gupte is eligible with 36 tests then so is Bumrah with 30

 

[HookShot]

if Gupte is eligible with 36 tests then so is Bumrah with 30

Gupte played only 36 tests because his career was forcibly ended in 1962 under much controversy. Bumrah unfortunately has consistently broken-down from injury thus harming his comparison to other great bowlers. Otherwise he would probably have ended-up as India‘s greatest ever fast bowler.

Timeline - how injuries have kept Bumrah out in the last four years

The Indian quick has had a tough time with his fitness in the recent past

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[Socerer 01]

Gupte played only 36 tests because his career was forcibly ended in 1962 under much controversy. Bumrah unfortunately has consistently broken-down from injury thus harming his comparison to other great bowlers. Otherwise he would probably have ended-up as India‘s greatest ever fast bowler.

Timeline - how injuries have kept Bumrah out in the last four years

The Indian quick has had a tough time with his fitness in the recent past

www.espncricinfo.com

i know of Gupte's end. i like him as a player too. but Bumrah shouldn't be kept out of any atg discussion for India because he has only played 30 tests. he is the 7th highest wicket taker for India among pacers and no one ahead of him or behind him has a bowling average near his. he's not Amar Singh or Nissar where there's an asterisk against them because they never played much despite being good

 

[HookShot]

That's basically asking them to lose though. You're not going to win many games with that sort of bowling lineup, especially when there are other better options to take wickets and balance the side. You're also asking them to make at least 300 vs ATG bowling lineups, which is really difficult to pull off consistently even for the best of lineups.


I'd only feel confident about 4 man attacks if we're discussing WI or AUS ATG XIs.

Many people rate Glenn McGrath as the greatest fast bowler of all time, and Shane Warne the greatest spinner of all time yet Tendulkar et al were still about to score good runs against them.

The Indian batting would undoubtably suffer against a West Indian pace quartet, but then again Gavaskar scored a double century (236) against a very good West Indian pace attack that featured Holding, Roberts and Marshall.

I also think that it’s reasonable to assume that Gupte would skittle the West Indian batting line-up because none of its modern batsman, including Richards would have faced a World class googly bowler before. Also the left-arm swing and accuracy of Khan would frustrate Sobers.

I think that there are more reasons to be optimistic than pessimistic with that Indian XI

 

[HookShot]

i know of Gupte's end. i like him as a player too. but Bumrah shouldn't be kept out of any atg discussion for India because he has only played 30 tests. he is the 7th highest wicket taker for India among pacers and no one ahead of him or behind him has a bowling average near his. he's not Amar Singh or Nissar where there's an asterisk against them because they never played much despite being good

Out-of-interest, how do you compare Bumrah and Shami? Are they close, or is it a case of day second?

 

[Starfighter]

I also think that it’s reasonable to assume that Gupte would skittle the West Indian batting line-up because none of its modern batsman, including Richards would have faced a World class googly bowler before. Also the left-arm swing and accuracy of Khan would frustrate Sobers.

Gupte averaged 35 against the West Indies side of his own time. Unlikely he would have been allowed to settle. And WI ate ordinary 135 km/h swing bowlers like Zaheer for lunch.

I think that there are more reasons to be optimistic than pessimistic with that Indian XI

They would most likely lose a 5 test series 3 or 4 to 0.

 

[trundler]

Gupte averaged 35 against the West Indies side of his own time. Unlikely he would have been allowed to settle. And WI ate ordinary 135 km/h swing bowlers like Zaheer for lunch

Even Laker averaged 30 against WI and he got to face them in '48 before the 3 Ws had established themselves. And he obviously had much better bowling support. Realistically, that's as good a return as any spinner can hope for against a stacked batting lineup.

 

[Socerer 01]

Out-of-interest, how do you compare Bumrah and Shami? Are they close, or is it a case of day second?

Bumrah is a clear level above Shami overall imo. you can see it when watching them bowl too, Shami goes missing too often for a player of his talent or bowls beautifully but never gets wickets where as Bumrah is the clinical bowler who also gets you wickets

one thing Shami does have is a flawless atg record in Asia for a pacer which is very impressive

 

[Fuller Pilch]

I think that there are more reasons to be optimistic than pessimistic with that Indian XI

Can't agree. I think India needs to go
-top 5 (top 4 set in stone with some debate over no 5)
-keeper
-Jadeja/Kapil or
-Kapil/Jadeja
-Ashwin (Kumble unlucky)
-Bumrah
-Shami/Ishant/Zaheer/Shami/Amar Singh

 

[HookShot]

Can't agree. I think India needs to go
-top 5 (top 4 set in stone with some debate over no 5)
-keeper
-Jadeja/Kapil
-Kapil/Jadeja
-Ashwin (Kumble unlucky)
-Bumrah
-Shami/Ishant/Zaheer/Shami/Amar Singh

If Dhoni or Enginneer are to bat at 6 then Jadeja should bat at 7 I think.

Jadeja’s batting, bowling and fielding certainly make the team more attacking if that’s what you want - so yeah, he’s a great option.

 

[Starfighter]

Even Laker averaged 30 against WI and he got to face them in '48 before the 3 Ws had established themselves. And he obviously had much better bowling support. Realistically, that's as good a return as any spinner can hope for against a stacked batting lineup.

Laker was not tremendously established in '48 either.

 

[Xix2565]

Many people rate Glenn McGrath as the greatest fast bowler of all time, and Shane Warne the greatest spinner of all time yet Tendulkar et al were still about to score good runs against them.

The Indian batting would undoubtably suffer against a West Indian pace quartet, but then again Gavaskar scored a double century (236) against a very good West Indian pace attack that featured Holding, Roberts and Marshall.

I also think that it’s reasonable to assume that Gupte would skittle the West Indian batting line-up because none of its modern batsman, including Richards would have faced a World class googly bowler before. Also the left-arm swing and accuracy of Khan would frustrate Sobers.

I think that there are more reasons to be optimistic than pessimistic with that Indian XI

Tendulkar didn't exactly do well vs McGrath tbh if we're talking matchups, and Australia still have ATG pacers behind him in this hypothetical. No one is going to do well in that situation. I don't think it's fair to use the outliers as an indication of how things would fare, since they are outliers for a reason. In ATG hypotheticals, I don't think the batters (of any team save Bradman) are going to consistently succeed vs the assembled bowling attacks. Which is why in such cases I want a better bowling lineup to have a better chance of winning games even if batting is weakened.

Gupte and Zaheer simply can't compare to Jadeja/Ashwin/Kumble and Bumrah tbh. Left arm angle would only have value if his record was similar and it's not.

 

[Line and Length]

Four England teams nominated and no Frank Tyson?

 

[HookShot]

Four England teams nominated and no Frank Tyson?

I think that it must be a longevity thing, and the fact that Tyson played only one complete 5 Test series.

Series	Mat	O	M	R	W	5w	10w	Best	Avg	S/R	E/R
1954 England v. Pakistan​	1​	22.4​	5​	57​	5​	0​	0​	4/35​	11.40​	27.20​	2.51​
1954-1955 Australia v. England​	5​	151.2​	16​	583​	28​	2​	1​	7/27​	20.82​	43.14​	2.90​
1954-1955 New Zealand v. England​	2​	49.0​	17​	90​	11​	0​	0​	4/16​	8.18​	26.73​	1.84​
1955 England v. South Africa​	2​	103.0​	19​	258​	14​	1​	0​	6/28​	18.43​	44.14​	2.50​
1956 England v. Australia​	1​	14.0​	5​	34​	1​	0​	0​	1/34​	34.00​	84.00​	2.43​
1956-1957 South Africa v. England​	2​	49.0​	14​	100​	8​	1​	0​	6/40​	12.50​	49.00​	1.53​
1958-1959 Australia v. England​	2​	54.0​	2​	193​	3​	0​	0​	1/20​	64.33​	144.00​	2.68​
1958-1959 New Zealand v. England​	2​	48.0​	19​	96​	6​	0​	0​	3/23​	16.00​	48.00​	2.00​
Overall (8)​	17​	491.0​	97​	1411​	76​	4​	1​	7/27​	18.57​	45.42​	2.45​

 

[HookShot]

Here we have John Snow bowling (and shoulder charging) against India who are chasing 183 for victory at Lords. There is good footage of Engineer and a young Gavaskar batting together.

Unfortunately the tape ends just as it’s getting exciting,

 

[_00_deathscar]

Unfortunately the tape ends just as it’s getting exciting,

Title

 

[peterhrt]

And most of the great 19th Century bowlers (Spofforth, Lohmann, Turner, Richardson) if we're going back that far.

Might be interesting to compare them. Opinions differed at the time.