The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[Starfighter]

But we do apparently have a benchmark speed for Charles Turner‘s ‘medium-paced’ bowling according to the Woolwich Arsenal - 89 kph. It’s possibly a bit low, but it couldn’t have been that far off his standard delivery.

And so, we could easily conceive the early ‘medium-paced’ off or leg break bowlers operating at about Anil Kumble’s speed. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster.

That speed was measured under unknown conditions for bowling and most likely with a device made for measuring the speed of artillery shells and not a cricket ball, which is much less dense and slower moving.

 

[Coronis]

But we do apparently have a benchmark speed for Charles Turner‘s ‘medium-paced’ bowling according to the Woolwich Arsenal - ‘81 ft per second’ which works out to be 55 mph or 89 kph. It’s possibly a bit low, but it couldn’t have been that far off his standard delivery.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD18931028.2.29.11

And so, we could easily conceive the early ‘medium-paced’ off or leg break bowlers operating at about Anil Kumble’s speed. Sometimes slower, sometimes faster.

You have an unhealthy obsession with speed.

 

[HookShot]

You have an unhealthy obsession with speed.

I have a curiosity with speed because that is one way of categorising bowling.

And according to this table, and Turner’s recorded speed he was not only ‘medium-paced’ in 19th century vernacular, but also medium-paced in modern-day vernacular.

So what-ever Turner was, he probably wasn’t a ‘pace-bowler’ in the modern-day sense.

 

[HookShot]

That speed was measured under unknown conditions for bowling and most likely with a device made for measuring the speed of artillery shells and not a cricket ball, which is much less dense and slower moving.

As per Ric Sissons, the author of The Terror — Charlie Turner, it is estimated that Turner bowled at around 55 miles per hour. The device that measured this at Woolwich Arsenal in 1888 was typically used to measure the speed of bullets; two sets of wires were placed at a distance from each other. When Turner bowled the ball broke the wires and sent out an electrical charge, which was then used to calculate the speed.

It appears that the measured speed was independent of ‘density’.

And let’s face it, the speed of a cricket ball should be far easier to measure than a speeding bullet no matter what method you’re using.

https://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/charlie-turner-termed-terror-then-terminated-34204

 

[Socerer 01]

You have an unhealthy obsession with speed.

 

[Starfighter]

It appears that the measured speed was independent of ‘density’.

And let’s face it, the speed of a cricket ball should be far easier to measure than a speeding bullet no matter what method you’re using.

https://www.cricketcountry.com/articles/charlie-turner-termed-terror-then-terminated-34204

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

The only slightly more detailed explanations of the measurement of Turner's pace I have seen state they used a Boulengé chronograph, which has the projectile penetrating two screens and the speed being measured by the timing of said penetration. A light, blunt object of very low speed, like a cricket ball, will lose far more momentum penetrating the screens and will therefore register a lower speed. There is also the question of what the distance was for whether air resistance could further reduce the speed.

 

[Coronis]

You haven't a clue what you're talking about.

The only slightly more detailed explanations of the measurement of Turner's pace I have seen state they used a Boulengé chronograph, which has the projectile penetrating two screens and the speed being measured by the timing of said penetration. A light, blunt object of very low speed, like a cricket ball, will lose far more momentum penetrating the screens and will therefore register a lower speed. There is also the question of what the distance was for whether air resistance could further reduce the speed.

Like I said, unhealthy.

 

[peterhrt]

However, the big question is….do Barnes, O’Reilly, Chandrasekhar, Kumble, Afridi all fall into the same ‘medium pace’ category as Spofforth, Lohmann, Turner and Trumble?

Can we categorise them as roughly the same

We have seen how sources differ. So do individual batsmen's perception of speed. Hobbs felt more hurried by Johnny Douglas than by Gregory. Not many batsmen would have agreed with him. Old “scientific” estimates of bowlers' speeds should probably be treated with caution. Pelham Warner claimed that Kortright had a “muzzle velocity” of 2,000 feet per second. That is over 1,300 mph!

A purely personal interpretation below. Others may disagree.

O'Reilly, Chandra and Kumble belong in the wrist-spinner category. They may have delivered fairly briskly and bowled the ball into the pitch rather than tossing it above the eyeline, but they were still wrist-spinners.

Barnes was a new-ball bowler who tried to get batsmen caught in the slips. He wasn't as fast as most new-ball bowlers today but had similar ideas. He belongs in a group of English medium-pacers with Tate and Bedser, who all bowled with the keeper standing up (at least in Tests). As he said himself, Barnes' methods were closer to Bedser than Tate, who was more like a modern seamer. Barnes' “leg-break” and Bedser's “leg-cutter” may have been the same delivery.

Spofforth attacked the stumps. Batsmen may have anticipated something fairly quick and were often surprised by slower balls. He was basically a fast-medium bowler who brought the ball back off the pitch. So was Turner.

Trumble was what we would now call an off-spinner. He was termed medium-pace but wouldn't be today, using flight and varying his pace. From some descriptions of the time Lohmann appears similar. Both specialised in “caught and bowled”, a classic spinner's dismissal. WG thought Lohmann was quicker and he did have a sharp quicker ball.

When Peel pushed the ball through on a turning pitch he was sometimes referred to as a medium-pacer or a length bowler. Today we would recognise him as a normal left-arm spinner.

 

[trundler]

Haha, this discussion is the equivalent of an internet blogger presenting an out there revisionist view such as Jesus or Muhammad never existing to peer review.

 

[HookShot]

95 mph according to some writer in a news article from the thirties I read a couple of years ago...

I would interested to read the news articles re Kortright if you can find them as ‘95 mph’ is a more precise measurement than merely saying “fast”.

So do you know how they determined that speed? Was it a stopwatch or something like a ‘Boulenge ballistic chronograph‘.

 

[HookShot]

Incidentally, the chronographs for large projectiles used about the time of Turner and Kortright apparently used trip-wire ‘screens’ as we can see in this photograph….

 

[HookShot]

…..although I dare say that the army would rigged up something like this for Turner or Kortright;

 

[HookShot]

The actual chronograph has a cool steam punk look about it…..

 

[HookShot]

Gideon Haigh in the AUS….

The chronograph, which now resembles a steampunk time machine, clocked Turner at 90km/h - hardly terroristic to modern eyes, although that was not really the point. Charlie Turner was perhaps not so much terrifying as terrorfying, exemplifying the masochistic pleasure that cricket's votaries take in experiencing trepidation at great skill. Long ago he might have been, but the mythos around Charlie Turner is abiding.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/overdue-honour-for-australias-peerless-paceman-charlie-turner/news-story/d2168d86dc9d7ca4b70c0d94060192dc

 

[ataraxia]

One thing to explain that incredibly low speed register for Turner would be perhaps that they were measuring the average speed of the bowl, not the speed at release point.

 

[shortpitched713]

ATG lists hot takes: Below are my actual orders for where I place these players in relation to one another from better to worse

Batsmen

Sanga
Viv
Miandad
Kallis
Tendulkar


Seamers

Steyn
Ambrose
Hadlee
Marshall

 

[Nintendo]

ATG lists hot takes: Below are my actual orders for where I place these players in relation to one another from better to worse

Batsmen

Sanga
Viv
Miandad
Kallis
Tendulkar


Seamers

Steyn
Ambrose
Hadlee
Marshall

Why do you rate tendulkar below sangha and kallis?

 

[Starfighter]

One thing to explain that incredibly low speed register for Turner would be perhaps that they were measuring the average speed of the bowl, not the speed at release point.

A chronograph takes an average speed between its two measuring point by nature of how they work. They certainly were not measuring at release.

 

[shortpitched713]

Why do you rate tendulkar below sangha and kallis?

Second half of career wasn't really that impressive to me. Even if the numbers were pretty good on the surface, they were 1) in an easier era, and 2) he just didn't have that dominance, which yeah I admit is a bit of eye test, but he was something very different in the first half of his career

I mean, I don't like being "that guy", because I think he is an absolutely ATG batsman. But consider, there's no shortage of people on this forum, who are "that guy" when it comes to the accomplishments and longevity of James Anderson ( the latter of which is harder to achieve for a seamer as compared to a batsman ), it just seems strange that Tendulkar is off limits. Great career, but depending on which version of him I pick, I might have a dozen guys who I'd want before him ( quite a few from his own team ). Plus, by that second half of his career his circumstance transformed from one in which he was the main lynchpin of a mediocre lineup into one in which he was in a rather star-studded one, arguably the best or co best in the world, which for me should have made it easier for him.

 

[TheJediBrah]

ATG lists hot takes: Below are my actual orders for where I place these players in relation to one another from better to worse

Batsmen

Sanga
Viv
Miandad
Kallis
Tendulkar


Seamers

Steyn
Ambrose
Hadlee
Marshall

Reverse orders