Calm_profit
State Vice-Captain
How about we have Tony Greig vs Ian Botham vs Andrew Flintoff vs Ben Stokes for the best English all rounder in last 60 years?
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Ben Stokes vs Ian Botham
- Thread starter slippy888
- Start date
BazBall21
International Captain
Yeah I agree, Stokes should be compared to Grieg more. Grieg is maybe a bit underrated. Very good against the spin quartet, commendable efforts against mid-70s Australia/WI and solid bowling figures.
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
‘Ben Stokes is a better all-rounder than Ian Botham – David Gower’
crictoday.com
Ben Stokes is a better all-rounder than Ian Botham - David Gower
David Gower has rated Ben Stokes above Ian Botham when it comes to contribution to England cricket.........
crictoday.com
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Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Gower's words: "He is ahead of Ian Botham in some ways".‘Ben Stokes is a better all-rounder than Ian Botham – David Gower’
Ben Stokes is a better all-rounder than Ian Botham - David Gower
David Gower has rated Ben Stokes above Ian Botham when it comes to contribution to England cricket.........
Imo:
Stokes - far better captain, far more professional trainer, similar or perhaps slightly better with the bat.
Botham - FAR FAR better bowler, more capable of performing with bat and ball in the same match
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
Perhaps Stokes is more of a batting all-rounder who is capable of batting in the top 6 because he can properly construct an innings.
And Botham is more of a bowling all-rounder who should be played at 7 or 8 so he can be a free spirit and slog.
I know that Botham was frequently picked as the number 6 by the selectors, but this merely did Botham, and the team an injustice.
Botham‘s average at number 6 = 29 (5 centuries in 94 innings)
Botham’s average at number 7 = 40 (6 centuries in 36 innings)
Brook's side
International Regular
he was more than a slog though. he could bat. you don't slog many 100s.
also worth noting that he averaged 53 in 18 innings at number 5 (3 100s).
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HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
Most of those runs at number 5 were scored against India in 1982. Kapil and Doshi were class acts, but then the bowling faded away.
Brook's side
International Regular
OK, but here's a century against Australia early in his career.
Ian Botham 119* vs Australia MCG 1979/80 - YouTube
He plays 1 lofted drive and 1 aggressive pull/hook shot, but he's not slogging. You make an interesting point, but I just disagree with the contention that he was a slogger. He was a proper batsman (or at least capable of being one).
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
Greig
Ave = 32
SR = 70
Flintoff
Ave = 33
SR = 66
Broad
Ave = 28
SR = 56
Anderson
Ave = 26
SR = 56
Stokes
Ave = 32 (peak 28)
SR = 58
(Dismissed Kohli 6 times, Clarke 4 times, Pujara 4 times, Smith and Warner 3 times.
Not suggesting that Stokes is close to the standard of Anderson, Broad or peak Botham (1977 to 1982), but any bowler with an Average of around 30 and a SR in the 50s is still pretty good and certainly not ‘FAR FAR’ behind them.
Fuller Pilch
Hall of Fame Member
Possibly, but Botham was better than Kapil and C Cairns with the ball. He was a quality swing bowler.
Stokes is only the 8th or 9th best bowler of the top allrounders of the last decade (admittedly there are very good bowlers in the list).
Brook's side
International Regular
Do you think Stokes is a better bowler than Flintoff?
OverratedSanity
Request Your Custom Title Now!
Stokes is awesome, better than Flintoff overall. But 14 tons and 27 5fers is insane, hard to top.
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The Sean
Cricketer Of The Year
When you look at the kind of performances Flintoff was capable of with the ball, it's almost personally insulting that he ended up with numbers that ordinary.
Red_Ink_Squid
Global Moderator
Stokes's bowling is tricky to judge. Sometimes his figures undersell how much he contributes, as he'll be tasked with bowling long spells at 2nd change with an old ball, often to try and break set partnerships or 'make something happen' when the game is dead. He'll maybe bowl 11 overs in an innings, all in a single spell, for figures of 2/50, but those two wickets prove match winning. And when the conditions are favourable for bowling, he often doesn't get a bowl at all.
...But then he's also has phases (such as recently as captain) where his bowling is just rank and offers nothing.
...But then he's also has phases (such as recently as captain) where his bowling is just rank and offers nothing.
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
It‘s pretty difficult to top 2005, or THAT over against Ponting which was one of the most spectacular overs ever bowled. But Stokes has been a consistent performer for many years with an excellent peak;
2016-20
Tests = 46
3421 runs at 43.30
110 wickets at 28.00
Where does Ben Stokes rank among the top allrounders of all time?
Over the last four and a half years, the England star has racked up truly special all-round stats
www.espncricinfo.com
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Nintendo
Cricketer Of The Year
Yeah stokes peak was pretty crazy. Basically did the same thing wagner did for NZ as a 5th bowler meaning they often didn't need a spinner at home or could carry a worse one who could bat like moeen and bess, while also being the best bat in the side (comparable with pre 2021 peak root).
HookShot
U19 Vice-Captain
You’re forgetting Stokes‘ 135 at Headingley which was one of the greatest innings of all time, and one that only a genius could have played. Botham’s 149 in 1981 was also great but it had none of the same pressure as Botham was merely setting a target for Australia to chase in a situation where England were already written-off and 500-1 against.
Yes Nathan Lyon should have run out Jack Leach near the end, but that’s really beside the point. .