The ATG Teams General arguing/discussing thread

[OverratedSanity]

The Telegraph in the UK, under the facilitation of its chief cricket writer Scyld Berry, has recently conducted exercises to name an all time England XI and an all time World XI. The format was the fairly standard of provide a shortlist for each role/position and then get the readers to vote.

The Telegraph All Time England XI:

Jack Hobbs
Alastair Cook
Wally Hammond
Joe Root
Kevin Pietersen
Ben Stokes (captain)
Ian Botham
Alan Knott
Jim Laker
James Anderson
Fred Trueman

Cook over Hutton and Sutcliffe is criminal.

 

[Sunil1z]

Maybe young demographics of England ( 16-25) has little knowledge about those 2 . How many people know how to use statsguru ?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Cook over Hutton is mental even though Cook is a lovely bloke. Joe Root has done nothing in Australia and Pietersen should be left out for the sake of team harmony. Only marginally better than Phil Tufnell in the field as well. Also, don’t need both Stokes and Botham in the side doing exactly the same thing. So Stokes at 6 as he can construct an innings when necessary and is a better batsman than Botham. Anderson and Trueman are basically fast medium so either Larwood or Snow need to be in the team to bowl a decent bouncer. Finally, where’s SF Barnes?

I'd just pick 6 specialist bats with Ames at 7 to make batting strong. Hammond and Root as 5th/6th bowler.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton (c)
Hammond
Root
Compton/Ranji/Dexter/KP??
Ames (wk)
Verity
Larwood/Anderson (Jimmy batting lower though)
Trueman
Barnes

 

[Slifer]

Sachin is a better batsman than Viv and needs to be in his natural position at number 4. Imran as the bowling all-rounder at 8

Not against pace he isn't. And assuming the new ball is still in play and fast bowlers are fresh, I'm going with Viv to bat as far up the order as he can...

 

[Flem274*]

I don't agree with Cook over those guys but also don't hate it. Expectations of openers have changed and they rarely average 50+ since WWII. Cook is top tier for players in that period.

 

[HookShot]

Not against pace he isn't. And assuming the new ball is still in play and fast bowlers are fresh, I'm going with Viv to bat as far up the order as he can...

Viv averaged 62 against Bob Willis and the England trundlers, but 44 against Australian pace and 42 against the Pakistan quicks under Imran.

Sachin averaged 54 in Australia, 46 in South Africa and 40 in Pakistan.

Yes Viv was very good at playing fast bowling but I don’t think that he was better than other World class batsman. Pulverising medium and fast medium bowlers is where he really excelled.

 

[HookShot]

I'd just pick 6 specialist bats with Ames at 7 to make batting strong. Hammond and Root as 5th/6th bowler.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton (c)
Hammond
Root
Compton/Ranji/Dexter/KP??
Ames (wk)
Verity
Larwood/Anderson (Jimmy batting lower though)
Trueman
Barnes

Hobbs, Sutcliffe and Hutton spent their entire careers opening the batting, so I think that we should bite the bullet and pick only two of them. Hammond was a skillful medium pacer who could be the 5th bowler if need be. Botham could bat at number 7 or 8 if you want to bat long, but I think that he is an inferior pacer to Larwood, Anderson, Trueman and Barnes. Or even Snow and Bedser if you want to consider them.

 

[OverratedSanity]

I don't agree with Cook over those guys but also don't hate it. Expectations of openers have changed and they rarely average 50+ since WWII. Cook is top tier for players in that period.

There haven't been any openers on Hobbs/Hutton/Sutcliffe's level since then apart from maybe Gavaskar. But I don't think that can somehow be used as evidence that opening has gotten tougher since then though, which is what you seem to be implying.

 

[Nintendo]

There haven't been any openers on Hobbs/Hutton/Sutcliffe's level since then apart from maybe Gavaskar. But I don't think that can somehow be used as evidence that opening has gotten tougher since then though, which is what you seem to be implying.

Opening nowadays is probably harder than it was in sutcliffes day right? Wider range of conditions, wobble seam, friendlier pitches, harder batting era, better nutrition/sports science and analysis, more left arm pace, drs etc. 20 years ago Flintoff going around the wicket to Gilchrist was novel now it's the default option of most broad style right arm seamers to left arm openers with the new ball and its extremely effective.

Not saying modern opening is impossibly harder given better equipment, benifits of the analysis stuff going the other way etc but it's a nuanced discussion with alot to consider.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Opening nowadays is probably harder than it was in sutcliffes day right? Wider range of conditions, wobble seam, friendlier pitches, harder batting era, better nutrition/sports science and analysis, more left arm pace, drs etc. 20 years ago Flintoff going around the wicket to Gilchrist was novel now it's the default option of most broad style right arm seamers to left arm openers with the new ball and its extremely effective.

Not saying modern opening is impossibly harder given better equipment, benifits of the analysis stuff going the other way etc but it's a nuanced discussion with alot to consider.

If by now you mean since 2018 yes absolutely . I don't think there's any evidence to suggest it has been especially tougher, if at all, in the post WWII period as a whole.

 

[Nintendo]

If by now you mean since 2018 yes absolutely . I don't think there's any evidence to suggest it has been especially tougher, if at all, in the post WWII period as a whole.

Summed it up perfectly.

 

[Slifer]

Viv averaged 62 against Bob Willis and the England trundlers, but 44 against Australian pace and 42 against the Pakistan quicks under Imran.

Sachin averaged 54 in Australia, 46 in South Africa and 40 in Pakistan.

Yes Viv was very good at playing fast bowling but I don’t think that he was better than other World class batsman. Pulverising medium and fast medium bowlers is where he really excelled.

Viv averaged 96 I believe in 1979 in Australia vs Lillee, Thompson, Pascoe etc without a helmet and with limitless bouncers. Viv averaged 70 odd vs Imran and Sarfraz in 1980 in Pakistan. 70 vs Wasim and Imran at home in '88. You name any great fast bowler from Viv's time, and he had at least one series where he conquered them. By contrast, Sachin never mastered the Ws or Donald. And he was moderately successful vs McGrath. Just looking at averages without a deeper dive or context; nope not going to fly here.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Sachin is a better batsman than Viv and needs to be in his natural position at number 4. Imran as the bowling all-rounder at 8

Doesn't matter Sachin should be left out for Steve Smith anyway

 

[CricAddict]

The Telegraph All Time World XI:

Jack Hobbs
Sunil Gavaskar
Don Bradman (captain)
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Garry Sobers
Adam Gilchrist
Shane Warne
Malcolm Marshall
James Anderson
Curtly Ambrose

Imran and Hadlee can genuinely replace Anderson and Ambrose there to have that team bat till XI and still have 5 good bowling options.

 

[CricAddict]

Doesn't matter Sachin should be left out for Steve Smith anyway

Viv will be the first head to fall unfortunately when Steve Smith enters.

 

[AndrewB]

The "batters (and keeper) all have better "best bowling" figures than the bowlers" XI:
Mudassar Nazar (6-32)
Kraigg Brathwaite (6-29)
Charles Macartney (7-58)
Frank Worrell (7-70)
Allan Border (7-46)
Michael Clarke (6-9)
John R Reid+ (6-60)
Heath Streak (6-73)
Graeme Swann (6-65)
Brett Lee (5-30)
Josh Hazlewood (6-67)

Conversely, an XI where the bowlers all have 9-fors while none of the batters ever bowled a delivery in a Test:
Herbert Sutcliffe
Bill Ponsford
Clem Hill
Peter May
Misbah-ul-Haq
Adam Gilchrist
Kapil Dev (9-83)
Richard Hadlee (9-52)
Jim Laker (10-53, 9-37)
Sydney Barnes (9-103)
Muttiah Muralitharan (9-51)

 

[The Sean]

Anderson and Trueman are basically fast medium so either Larwood or Snow need to be in the team to bowl a decent bouncer.

You would have been taking your life in your hands if you told peak Fred Trueman that he was fast-medium.

His great partner Brian Statham was probably more fast-medium than fast, but Trueman was genuinely quick.

 

[trundler]

You would have been taking your life in your hands if you told peak Fred Trueman that he was fast-medium.

His great partner Brian Statham was probably more fast-medium than fast, but Trueman was genuinely quick.

They didn't call him Fiery Fred for nothing.

 

[Pothas]

I'd just pick 6 specialist bats with Ames at 7 to make batting strong. Hammond and Root as 5th/6th bowler.

Hobbs
Sutcliffe
Hutton (c)
Hammond
Root
Compton/Ranji/Dexter/KP??
Ames (wk)
Verity
Larwood/Anderson (Jimmy batting lower though)
Trueman
Barnes

If you are playing Ames over Knott then I think it should be to get Botham in at 7. Adds so much to the bowling that I really don't think you can leave him out.

 

[Coronis]

Honestly surprised how well their World XI turned out, minus Anderson of course.

Their England XI sucked though, which fits given English selectors.

Conversely, an XI where the bowlers all have 9-fors while none of the batters ever bowled a delivery in a Test:
Herbert Sutcliffe
Bill Ponsford
Clem Hill
Peter May
Misbah-ul-Haq
Adam Gilchrist
Kapil Dev (9-83)
Richard Hadlee (9-52)
Jim Laker (10-53, 9-37)
Sydney Barnes (9-103)
Muttiah Muralitharan (9-51)

Love this XI, great concept.