Masters vs Geniuses in ATGs

[subshakerz]

Those 3 innings aren’t exactly what I’d use to describe a player as genius. Flat wickets and **** attacks where players from both teams were tonning up and putting up 500+ scores, sure. (Obviously he was the best batsmen in all those matches, and so yeah excelled).

I mean, if it was so easy you would have multiple batsmen breaking those records again and again. Lara is the only one so for me as a feat of runscoring it is exceptional. But you can take his ATG series as better examples.

There’s also a qualitative difference in what a “master” produces and how they play.

Anyway, I’ve read this definition of genius and I like it: an exceptionally intelligent person or one with exceptional skill in a particular area of activity.

I don’t mind calling all ATGs geniuses tbh

I think if you widen the definition of genius that much it it becomes redundant. A genius should be once or twice an era thing.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

If a great player can perform at top level in all formats, he is a genius otherwise he can be termed as master.

Geniuses -
Batsmen - Sachin, Lara, Richards, Kohli, Ponting, Pietersen, Sangakkara, De Villiers, Gilchrist. Wasim, Mcgrath, Marshall, Hadlee, Ambrose, Wasim, Bond, Warne, Murali, Bumrah, Garner.

Masters - Dravid, Kallis, Root, Smith, Williamson, Younis, S Waugh, A Border, Sehwag, Hayden, Cook, Boycott, Cummins, Rabada.

Only applies to players who played multiple formats.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

As So many random names are being mentioned.
I would like to mention Stan McCabe.

 

[Coronis]

If a great player can perform at top level in all formats, he is a genius otherwise he can be termed as master.

Geniuses -
Batsmen - Sachin, Lara, Richards, Kohli, Ponting, Pietersen, Sangakkara, De Villiers, Gilchrist. Wasim, Mcgrath, Marshall, Hadlee, Ambrose, Wasim, Bond, Warne, Murali, Bumrah, Garner.

Masters - Dravid, Kallis, Root, Smith, Williamson, Younis, S Waugh, A Border, Sehwag, Hayden, Cook, Boycott, Cummins, Rabada.

Only applies to players who played multiple formats.

That is one hell of a broad definition of top level if it includes KP.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

That is one hell of a broad definition of top level if it includes KP.

Pietersen was ATVG in tests atleast, Great in Odis and a t20 ATG.

 

[OverratedSanity]

rename thread to s3xy vs effective

I prefer to look at it as "play like him, he's basically perfected how the game is supposed to be played" vs "don't even try playing like him you'll fail" thing.

Like, it'd be impossible for most people to emulate Lara's technique (the huge back lift, ****ed wrist, pronounced squat, massive movements all around the crease especially vs spinners), but can easily see a coach making young players look at tape of Tendulkar's batting to show them a method that could work for a much wider sample of young batsmen.

 

[ma1978]

Tendulkar is in the genius category. I think he had such a long career that people forget the 90s when a he was a total freak. A freak with immaculate technique but a freak nonetheless.

Others

Ian Botham - total freak and anyone who doesn’t consider him an ATG is missing the five years when he was the greatest all rounder the game has seen

AB De Villiers - is there a discussion?

of course Lara, Viv, Sobers, Warne, Murali, Gilchrist, Imran, Hadlee

 

[ma1978]

Also you can argue whether he is an ATG (I think he is) but Kapil had a lot of moments of genius

 

[ma1978]

And finally Ricky Ponting, pure genius

 

[Ali TT]

Where do leaders who have statistically less impressive records but were huge influencers over the game come into this equation? For England, Brearley is hugely admired for his intellect and ability to get the most out of his talented stars in a team full of egos. And while not in tests, Eoin Morgan transformed a joke of a limited over outfit into record-breaking world champions. Where do they likes of Lloyd, Ranatunga and Fleming sit in this pantheon of "geniuses"?

 

[subshakerz]

I prefer to look at it as "play like him, he's basically perfected how the game is supposed to be played" vs "don't even try playing like him you'll fail" thing.

Like, it'd be impossible for most people to emulate Lara's technique (the huge back lift, ****ed wrist, pronounced squat, massive movements all around the crease especially vs spinners), but can easily see a coach making young players look at tape of Tendulkar's batting to show them a method that could work for a much wider sample of young batsmen.

Yup exactly. The way I see it, a genius has a very distinctive style that normally wouldn't work, but those rare individuals are able to achieve ATG level success with their unique skillset.

 

[subshakerz]

Where do leaders who have statistically less impressive records but were huge influencers over the game come into this equation? For England, Brearley is hugely admired for his intellect and ability to get the most out of his talented stars in a team full of egos. And while not in tests, Eoin Morgan transformed a joke of a limited over outfit into record-breaking world champions. Where do they likes of Lloyd, Ranatunga and Fleming sit in this pantheon of "geniuses"?

Brearley could be considered a captaincy genius, not to me though since I rate Taylor higher in that category. Eoin Morgan as well in LOIs.

 

[subshakerz]

Tendulkar is in the genius category. I think he had such a long career that people forget the 90s when a he was a total freak. A freak with immaculate technique but a freak nonetheless.

Others

Ian Botham - total freak and anyone who doesn’t consider him an ATG is missing the five years when he was the greatest all rounder the game has seen

AB De Villiers - is there a discussion?

of course Lara, Viv, Sobers, Warne, Murali, Gilchrist, Imran, Hadlee

Tendulkar was a prodigy sure, but how he played was pretty much classical technique. Early stage Botham was genius level but didnt deliver on that in long term.

 

[Victor Ian]

Where do leaders who have statistically less impressive records but were huge influencers over the game come into this equation? For England, Brearley is hugely admired for his intellect and ability to get the most out of his talented stars in a team full of egos. And while not in tests, Eoin Morgan transformed a joke of a limited over outfit into record-breaking world champions. Where do they likes of Lloyd, Ranatunga and Fleming sit in this pantheon of "geniuses"?

Ranatunga sits in the middle

 

[subshakerz]

Ranatunga sits in the middle

Ranatunga was more of the 'lead from the front' type of inspiring captain like Imran and Ganguly, rather than someone who I think is a tactical genius.

 

[Xix2565]

Captaincy is such a meaningless category to find Master/Genius in because the results are largely going to be based on available player talent/quality than anything unique to the captain.

 

[subshakerz]

Captaincy is such a meaningless category to find Master/Genius in because the results are largely going to be based on available player talent/quality than anything unique to the captain.

Agreed somewhat but I think certain captains like Taylor had moments of tactical genius on the field.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Genius Sobers.. Master Bradman
Genius Viv...... Master Gavaskar
Genius Akram.. Master Hadlee

Master Genius Kapil Dev ?

( Master Bowler + Genius Batsman )

 

[Xix2565]

Agreed somewhat but I think certain captains like Taylor had moments of tactical genius on the field.

Sure, but that's as much down to luck as well. Easy to remember moments of failure/success when nothing happens a lot of the time.

 

[subshakerz]

Sure, but that's as much down to luck as well. Easy to remember moments of failure/success when nothing happens a lot of the time.

Not sure it's luck. There is a sort of intuition these captains have.