Is AB de Villiers an ATG test batsman?

[subshakerz]

Yup, I rate Big Phil. Saw him, loved what he did, and everything he helped SA accomplish. **** the CW hate brigade.

So we hate him if we don't rate him ahead of Lillee?

 

[shortpitched713]

Philander took under 3 wickets a match away from home. He barely made the SA team in away tests during his career, how is he an ATG?

Best bowler for his time, right up there with Steyn, if you compare the two.

Best abuser of good conditions for seamers of all time, which believe it or not, is more likely to lead to wins than managing to extract some value out of flat decks ( regardless of what adverse conditions fetishists of CW think ).

Those two won matches together for SA, and to me it's not a clear 1 McGrath 2 Gillespie type partnership. It was more 1a Steyn 1b Philander.

That's how I see it, and I'm a big fan of Philander, always.

 

[Riaan]

What is amazing about AB is that he is actually a world-class keeper as well, the only thing that is haunting all South African great players is that they never won a world cup since resubmission. Big temperament in big stress full games are lacking, or South Africans must have a mental block when it comes to nock out tournaments.

 

[shortpitched713]

So we hate him if we don't rate him ahead of Lillee?

It's your opinion, which is fine, but Lillee is also part of a "canon" of players who we're just supposed to accept as the best, and new players somehow have to hope that old people die before they can enter into the conversation. It's asinine, and we mis rate all kinds of players due to this inertia.

In actual fact the range of reasonable opinions on cricket is much wider than the approved CW party consensus.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Proof for AB de Villiers as an ATG Test Batsmen

In Australia

2005-2012

9

17

2

671

169

44.73

1565

42.87

2

4

0

78

4

In England	2008-2012	7	10	0	545	174	54.50	1096	49.72	1	1	0	72	0
In India	2008-2015	9	15	1	630	217*	45.00	1247	50.52	1	3	1	66	3

In South Africa

2004-2018

66

109

8

4788

163

47.40

8335

57.44

13

28

6

585

38

 

[Coronis]

The trolling is getting better these days. More subtle, somehow.

 

[Bolo.]

Best bowler for his time, right up there with Steyn, if you compare the two.

Best abuser of good conditions for seamers of all time, which believe it or not, is more likely to lead to wins than managing to extract some value out of flat decks ( regardless of what adverse conditions fetishists of CW think ).

Those two won matches together for SA, and to me it's not a clear 1 McGrath 2 Gillespie type partnership. It was more 1a Steyn 1b Philander.

That's how I see it, and I'm a big fan of Philander, always.

Saying the 80s/90s guys aren't that good cos of favourable conditions while ranking Philander this high because he was good in (very) favourable conditions doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[shortpitched713]

Saying the 80s/90s guys aren't that good cos of favourable conditions while ranking Philander this high because he was good in (very) favourable conditions doesn't make a lot of sense.

He wasn't just "good" in good conditions. He was absolutely dominant with a little pitch assistance. And it happened regularly enough, and also abroad in England and New Zealand, that you can't just say he's inconsistent in that. He was always doing it, wherever he went.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Philander's Strength

In England

2012-2017

6

12

200.5

52

518

22

5/30

7/78

23.54

2.57

54.7

1

0

In New Zealand

2012-2017

6

10

188.3

47

528

23

6/44

10/114

22.95

2.80

49.1

2

1

In South Africa

2011-2020

36

69

1068.0

299

2787

146

6/21

10/102

19.08

2.60

43.8

9

1

Philander is an ALL Time Great only on Green Pitches

 

[trundler]

Best bowler for his time, right up there with Steyn, if you compare the two.

He really wasn't after the first 10 or so tests. So for a very brief period of time he was the best bowler in the world but many guys ranging from Ryan Harris to Abbas can claim that depending on how brief the qualification period is. He was better for longer than mere flashes in the pan but he's nowhere near ATG standards of longevity.

Best abuser of good conditions for seamers of all time

Only appears that way because he was worse than useless in unfavorable conditions. His strengths stand out more by contrast. He wasn't better than Ambrose or a number of great bowlers on green decks.

 

[Bolo.]

He wasn't just "good" in good conditions. He was absolutely dominant with a little pitch assistance. And it happened regularly enough, and also abroad in England and New Zealand, that you can't just say he's inconsistent in that. He was always doing it, wherever he went.

He's probably underated a bit on CW, but a guy who took 3.5 WPM and 224 total while playing the majority of his games on arguably the juiciest pitches in history shouldn't be entering top tier discussions. He might have been the best abuser of seaming decks ever, but there were plenty of players who were also spectacular at it while being leagues above him.

 

[CricketFan90s]

Philander's Weakness

In Australia

2012-2016

5

9

170.3

38

482

16

5/21

5/52

30.12

2.82

63.9

1

0

In India

2015-2019

3

5

87.0

23

216

5

2/38

3/61

43.20

2.48

104.4

0

0

In Sri Lanka

2014-2018

3

6

69.4

21

190

3

2/52

2/87

63.33

2.72

139.3

0

0

In Bangladesh

2015-2015

2

2

31.0

4

65

2

2/40

2/40

32.50

2.09

93.0

0

0

In Zimbabwe

2014-2014

1

2

28.0

8

76

1

1/51

1/76

76.00

2.71

168.0

0

0

Looks like Philander cannot do well in Australia and Sub Continent

 

[trundler]

He's probably underated a bit on CW, but a guy who took 3.5 WPM and 224 total while playing the majority of his games on arguably the juiciest pitches in history shouldn't be entering top tier discussions. He might have been the best abuser of seaming decks ever, but there were plenty of players who were also spectacular at it while being leagues above him.

I have somewhat heretical opinions on batsmen and rate De Villiers lower than most, slightly ahead or roughly equal to Clarke, for reasons OS summarised well, but I'll say his case at least has a decent argument. If we're letting Philander in then Yousuf, Rohit, Bedser, Fazal etc are all ATGs too when that's The Definitely Not ATG tier IMO.

 

[Archer6K]

Would be interesting to see what the other fast bowler's averaged in matches that Philander played in

 

[shortpitched713]

Philander's Weakness

In Australia

2012-2016

5

9

170.3

38

482

16

5/21

5/52

30.12

2.82

63.9

1

0

In India

2015-2019

3

5

87.0

23

216

5

2/38

3/61

43.20

2.48

104.4

0

0

In Sri Lanka

2014-2018

3

6

69.4

21

190

3

2/52

2/87

63.33

2.72

139.3

0

0

In Bangladesh

2015-2015

2

2

31.0

4

65

2

2/40

2/40

32.50

2.09

93.0

0

0

In Zimbabwe

2014-2014

1

2

28.0

8

76

1

1/51

1/76

76.00

2.71

168.0

0

0

Looks like Philander cannot do well in Australia and Sub Continent

At least he's not bashing minnows, no?

 

[CricketFan90s]

Would be interesting to see what the other fast bowler's averaged in matches that Philander played in

Everyone had their Strengths and Weakness. Dale Steyn averaged 31.65 in England and 30.34 in Srilanka.

 

[shortpitched713]

If we're letting Philander in then Yousuf, Rohit, Bedser, Fazal etc are all ATGs too when that's The Definitely Not ATG tier IMO.

I'm totally heretical on Philander. He's one of my all time favorites. Then again, I was an Umar Gul fan as well. Meh, whatever I just think he doesn't get the praise he deserves, moreso than any other Test player I can think of in history. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me that he's a world-beater and ATG (which I think he is).

 

[trundler]

Would be interesting to see what the other fast bowler's averaged in matches that Philander played in

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...r_involve=46935;template=results;type=bowling

28.35 is the overall average for pacers in matches involving Philander. Notably lower than the overall average for pacers in the 2010s which is 30.83.

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...0;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

A little bit of rudimentary adjustment standardises his average to ~26.

 

[OverratedSanity]

However much it disgusts me that you think Philander is an ATG, you're entitled to that opinion. Ranking him above Wasim Garner Lillee and Waqar really stretches the limits of credulity though.

 

[CricketFan90s]

I'm totally heretical on Philander. He's one of my all time favorites. Then again, I was an Umar Gul fan as well. Meh, whatever I just think he doesn't get the praise he deserves, moreso than any other Test player I can think of in history. I don't expect anyone else to agree with me that he's a world-beater and ATG (which I think he is).

Philander is an ATG in Swing Conditions ? but cannot call him a True All Time Great as he should have taken more Wickets and played longer. 72 Wickets outside South Africa at an Avg of 28.81 is not really impressive at the same time not too bad.