*Official* New Zealand vs Pakistan 2022/23

[Zinzan]

Am I the only one thinking in spite of the early wicket and a half (since it was the nightwatchman) that Pakistan are still odds-on favs to win? Wicket still looks flat and they really only need 2-3 decent partnerships. If I'm Pakistan, I'd start out conservatively, and with wickets in hand go after 4-5 an over in the last session if need be.

 

[Starfighter]

Abrar is a mystery spinner who almost presents the front of his hand to you so you know how he's holding the ball.
It's a bit odd and I think he's got talent to be a normal legspinner because he can land it but his unorthodox element almost hampers him.
Nauman is far less ***y and old but his bowling looks pretty serviceable given the mega highway he bowled on and he can also bat.

Funny lot of conclusions this one. All spinners present their grip in one way or another. Conventional leg spinners have to bowl the googly with a different wrist position and batsmen pick that, so I don't see how the 'front handed' grip is a problem.

He suffers from the main problem that leg spinners who don't use the wrist have, which is that he doesn't put much spin on it. I don't see how you conclude 'he's got the talent to be a normal leg spinner'. He'll have to learn a technically different action and release, whereas his success has come from the way he currently bowls.

 

[Starfighter]

I’ve now been told in recent weeks that Abrar and that Aussie guy Dooley are conventional wrist spinners. Does no-one know what a leg break is supposed to look like anymore?

You specifically insisted that Dooley is an orthodox spinner which he is definitely not.

Prior to the South African bowlers in the mid-1900s leg spinners did not really use the wrist, instead more or less rolling the ball out of the hand. This was less effective, but no-one went and redefined them as not being leg spinners. Bill O'Reilly also cut his leg break out the front of the hand, but no-one defined him as not a leg spinner. That's why the term wrist spinner is not necessarily appropriate for leg spinner, though the ubiquity of the conventional technique means they usually are considered synonymous (also, off spinners use the wrist too).

Abrar is absolutely a leg spinner, but with an unusual grip and release and no use of the wrist. The way he produces the googly is the same as a normal leg spinner does, by turning the hand around. Leg break on left, googly on right:



Dooley is harder to gauge as the BBL's rubbish production values preclude ever getting a clear view, but he appears to cut the ball out the left side of his hand, the opposite side to an orthodox spinner.

 

[Bahnz]

Am I the only one thinking in spite of the early wicket and a half (since it was the nightwatchman) that Pakistan are still odds-on favs to win? Wicket still looks flat and they really only need 2-3 decent partnerships. If I'm Pakistan, I'd start out conservatively, and with wickets in hand go after 4-5 an over in the last session if need be.

Nah, Pakistan have 3 more number XI’s to come, and they’ll be eager to avoid a third consecutive series loss at home. It’s definitely possible that Pakistan could win, but NZ and then the draw are the favourites at this point.

 

[jcas0167]

Ha, I glanced at my phone in the middle of the night and thought Pakistan had 2 *runs* for no wickets. Wow. Commentators vindicated.

 

[thierry henry]

You specifically insisted that Dooley is an orthodox spinner which he is definitely not.

Prior to the South African bowlers in the mid-1900s leg spinners did not really use the wrist, instead more or less rolling the ball out of the hand. This was less effective, but no-one went and redefined them as not being leg spinners. Bill O'Reilly also cut his leg break out the front of the hand, but no-one defined him as not a leg spinner. That's why the term wrist spinner is not necessarily appropriate for leg spinner, though the ubiquity of the conventional technique means they usually are considered synonymous (also, off spinners use the wrist too).

Abrar is absolutely a leg spinner, but with an unusual grip and release and no use of the wrist. The way he produces the googly is the same as a normal leg spinner does, by turning the hand around. Leg break on left, googly on right:

View attachment 34161 View attachment 34162

Dooley is harder to gauge as the BBL's rubbish production values preclude ever getting a clear view, but he appears to cut the ball out the left side of his hand, the opposite side to an orthodox spinner.

ok

 

[thierry henry]

Am I the only one thinking in spite of the early wicket and a half (since it was the nightwatchman) that Pakistan are still odds-on favs to win? Wicket still looks flat and they really only need 2-3 decent partnerships. If I'm Pakistan, I'd start out conservatively, and with wickets in hand go after 4-5 an over in the last session if need be.

Yeah I was gonna say last night that basically just getting one opener out doesn’t mean we’ve suddenly won the test. It wouldn’t have fit with the orgy of gleeful ‘we’re so bad at predicting cricket ayy lmao’ going on at the time though.

 

[thierry henry]

They probably haven't thought about it this deeply but if you accept that humans are extremely loss averse (not controversial at all) then to counteract this tendency you could bias your decisions towards aggression

Man I've missed arguing pedantic esoteric **** with TH

I don’t have an issue with that really, it’s more the extreme bias often expressed by commentators (and Bazballers) to the extent of ‘there’s no point doing anything other than trying to win’. Like, there’s a very obvious point in trying to draw rather than lose - and if that has no value, then winning has no value over drawing.

 

[Starfighter]

No Sharjeel in the ODI squad, one again off to watch the whinging on a certain other forum.

 

[Athlai]

Am I the only one thinking in spite of the early wicket and a half (since it was the nightwatchman) that Pakistan are still odds-on favs to win? Wicket still looks flat and they really only need 2-3 decent partnerships. If I'm Pakistan, I'd start out conservatively, and with wickets in hand go after 4-5 an over in the last session if need be.

Yeah you're Zinzan stormcloud

 

[NZTailender]

Maybe I've been burnt but all 3 results possible. We could roll Pakistan for naught, it could drag on for a draw, or one Pakistani batsman will play some stupid aggressive blinder for which Steady will have no answer.

I'm actually optimistic that with Southee captaining that last one might not happen because he may actually deviate from the tried and true plans that Williamson and stead would go back to time and again when an innings called for innovation in the face of the game running away from them.

 

[Starfighter]

Maybe I've been burnt but all 3 results possible. We could roll Pakistan for naught, it could drag on for a draw, or one Pakistani batsman will play some stupid aggressive blinder for which Steady will have no answer.

Don't forget a tie.

 

[NZTailender]

Don't forget a tie.

Why, I'm not going anywhere formal

 

[Flem274*]

Yeah there's runs here if you don't bat like a dick.

 

[NZTailender]

Yeah there's runs here if you don't bat like a dick.

Sarfaraz: hold my sensodyne beverage thing

 

[straw man]

Babar, Sarfraz and Imam all still threats who have scored runs this series. Saud Shakeel has too, though seems less likely to do it at a rate that threatens the target.

And nearly forgot Salman Agha scored a quick century last test too. So there's plenty of batting - truly all results possible.

Sadly I will miss most of the final day as attending a wedding, so will have to monitor from my phone Sodhi's guzzling down of the Pakistan morsels at the same rate I'm demolishing the canapes.

 

[honestbharani]

You specifically insisted that Dooley is an orthodox spinner which he is definitely not.

Prior to the South African bowlers in the mid-1900s leg spinners did not really use the wrist, instead more or less rolling the ball out of the hand. This was less effective, but no-one went and redefined them as not being leg spinners. Bill O'Reilly also cut his leg break out the front of the hand, but no-one defined him as not a leg spinner. That's why the term wrist spinner is not necessarily appropriate for leg spinner, though the ubiquity of the conventional technique means they usually are considered synonymous (also, off spinners use the wrist too).

Abrar is absolutely a leg spinner, but with an unusual grip and release and no use of the wrist. The way he produces the googly is the same as a normal leg spinner does, by turning the hand around. Leg break on left, googly on right:

View attachment 34161 View attachment 34162

Dooley is harder to gauge as the BBL's rubbish production values preclude ever getting a clear view, but he appears to cut the ball out the left side of his hand, the opposite side to an orthodox spinner.

Chris Harris used to bowl what were basically rollers with a leg break action too, right? But most of the time the ball came into the right handers? Or am I mixing up someone else?

 

[Starfighter]

Chris Harris used to bowl what were basically rollers with a leg break action too, right? But most of the time the ball came into the right handers? Or am I mixing up someone else?

His technique was based around slow in swingers, which due to the angle needed to bowl them, could cut away off the pitch especially if the seam wasn't steady. Just a slow-medium pacer with an awkward action.

 

[honestbharani]

The back of the hand release and the fingers cutting on the right side of the ball does make it seem similar to how a classic leggie would hold the ball, i guess.

 

[Starfighter]

The back of the hand release and the fingers cutting on the right side of the ball does make it seem similar to how a classic leggie would hold the ball, i guess.

Huh? Did you watch that video of Harris? If that's who you're talking about, it's clearly a front of hand release with the fingers going down the back of the ball, like for a normal in swinger.