What if - Kapil had played in a better team

[TheJediBrah]

I don't want to anger all the Indian posters, or come across as a Kapil basher but...

Greenidge
Viv
Dujon
Marshall
Garner
(perhaps any of Lloyd, Holding, Walsh)

Hayden
Ponting
S Waugh
Gilchrist
Warne
McGrath

PFK and Kapil is not a love affair you want to get in the middle of

 

[Victor Ian]

And there is no doubt, playing in a better team makes your stats better.

Plenty of doubt. Kapil stops taking nearly 2 wickets per innings and probably now fares significantly worse than reifel. He doesn't get the new ball so his strike rate gets worse and he gets hit around more in the middle overs. His bowling becomes meh.

His batting is a hard call. He no longer gets a regular bat so his form might suffer there, or it might hold up, but it doesn't get better as he is not batting top 7 in the aus or wi team. He becomes nothing more than belting quick runs.

Point is, that comment is just hyperbole.

 

[Victor Ian]

Is Dev anything more than a Flintoff or a Cairns, once he stops being the only bowler of note in his team and he doesn't end with more than 400 wickets and probably pushes somewhere in the 200s?

 

[TheJediBrah]

I think it's pretty clear that as far as his reputation and legacy goes Kapil got the best he was going to get with what he did. In a stronger team he would be remembered as a lesser player

 

[honestbharani]

Is Dev anything more than a Flintoff or a Cairns, once he stops being the only bowler of note in his team and he doesn't end with more than 400 wickets and probably pushes somewhere in the 200s?

Given he missed only one test throughout his whole career and was actually fit to play international cricket for about 16 years, I would say he is a million times more than the injury prone blokes you mentioned.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Also Fintoff was only really good for like 2 years

 

[trundler]

Plenty of doubt. Kapil stops taking nearly 2 wickets per innings and probably now fares significantly worse than reifel. He doesn't get the new ball so his strike rate gets worse and he gets hit around more in the middle overs. His bowling becomes meh.

His batting is a hard call. He no longer gets a regular bat so his form might suffer there, or it might hold up, but it doesn't get better as he is not batting top 7 in the aus or wi team. He becomes nothing more than belting quick runs.

Point is, that comment is just hyperbole.

This is baffling logic lol. None of these things is as significant as doing less donkey work, not bowling as much when tired and most importantly, benefiting from the pressure built up at the other end.

This is like claiming slow scoring is better because bowlers get tired. C'mon. Playing in a better team obviously helps your stats.

 

[TheJediBrah]

C'mon. Playing in a better team obviously helps your stats.

Can't be that simple. You think Hadlee would average 18 if he played in the 80s WI? Andy Flower averages 60+ if he played for Aus 00s? Come on

 

[Xix2565]

I mean hyperbole aside trundler is right here (maybe surprising for some of you). He and other greats lifted from **** teams and transplanted into great teams might not suddenly become outliers in terms of how good they are but they'll get all sorts of benefits that come with a strong side that'll make a decent impact on their record.

 

[trundler]

Can't be that simple. You think Hadlee would average 18 if he played in the 80s WI? Andy Flower averages 60+ if he played for Aus 00s? Come on

Not by that much maybe but they'd be probably as good as guys who are rated more highly but played in stronger teams. Seems like motivated reasoning. The way I see it it's no coincidence Marshall and McGrath played for the strongest teams of their era and that Hadlee, Akram etc are as good.

 

[h_hurricane]

Plenty of doubt. Kapil stops taking nearly 2 wickets per innings and probably now fares significantly worse than reifel. He doesn't get the new ball so his strike rate gets worse and he gets hit around more in the middle overs. His bowling becomes meh.

His batting is a hard call. He no longer gets a regular bat so his form might suffer there, or it might hold up, but it doesn't get better as he is not batting top 7 in the aus or wi team. He becomes nothing more than belting quick runs.

Point is, that comment is just hyperbole.

He took 2 wickets out of 5-7 per innings as his team was not good enough to bowl out opposition. In a better team, within the same timespan, he would get plenty of opportunities to bowl at tail enders to improve his wicket count as well as averages. So works both ways. He may not get the new ball in the WI team but he may get it ahead of Gillespie in Aus team. Even if he doesn't, he would still be sharing spoils in the middle overs with Warne, against lower order batsmen.

Kind of agree on the irregular batting position, but then again he would get plenty of opportunities to do downhill skiing against battered opposition, so he beefs up his batting average as well imo.

 

[h_hurricane]

I think it's pretty clear that as far as his reputation and legacy goes Kapil got the best he was going to get with what he did. In a stronger team he would be remembered as a lesser player

Only lesser than the very best players in the team as PFK said, lets say Viv, Marshall, Ambrose, Mcgrath, Gilchrist and Warne. Will be as good as anyone else so will be remembered as a great player anyways.

 

[Flem274*]

kapil would play for the great aussie team of the 00s. he's a better bowler than lee and aussie had a bit of a revolving door at 6 once clarke moved up. aus also had a thing for finding their own great allrounder.

the west indies had long periods of playing either meh guys at 6 or not playing 4 quicks but including someone like roger harper. i'd say kapil is a better bowler than the good to decent guys of that era too, and we forget the 6 or so ATGs cover a period of nearly 30 years. there's plenty of room for a great allrounder.

 

[Patience and Accuracy+Gut]

This is baffling logic lol. None of these things is as significant as doing less donkey work, not bowling as much when tired and most importantly, benefiting from the pressure built up at the other end.

This is like claiming slow scoring is better because bowlers get tired. C'mon. Playing in a better team obviously helps your stats.

Some player simply step up when they know the whole responsibility of the team is on them and perform better.Which they mayn’t have done if they were playing for a stronger teams.

 

[Victor Ian]

C'mon. Playing in a better team obviously helps your stats.

c'mon. Seriously. People just keep spouting 'der yeah, better team better stats' with as little logic to back it up as I threw out there to consider the other side. Truth is, that you really don't know. Are there good examples of players who got better as their team got better, that aren't equally balanced by the opposite? Truth is you really don't know. I'd like to think Dev would have been better, but really...who knows.

 

[Flem274*]

This is baffling logic lol. None of these things is as significant as doing less donkey work, not bowling as much when tired and most importantly, benefiting from the pressure built up at the other end.

This is like claiming slow scoring is better because bowlers get tired. C'mon. Playing in a better team obviously helps your stats.

you had me until the bowlers getting tired bit. irl the greatest sin you can commit is not be there to capitalise on the bowlers getting tired because you batted like a dick instead of sucking it up and being boring for 2 sessions when they're on top.

 

[Victor Ian]

I should just point out, that I was a huge Reiffel fan. I'd often be discussing with my mates in the 90's how this guy was almost like an all rounder, even though he never was. He was massively under rated, though I admit that still doesn't make him Kapil. I got triggered, when I saw his name.

 

[Flem274*]

Can't be that simple. You think Hadlee would average 18 if he played in the 80s WI? Andy Flower averages 60+ if he played for Aus 00s? Come on

pumping up the hypothetical flower average to 60 is such a dumb argument.

you would see small but noticeable improvements in their statistics due to flower being exposed to pressure situations less frequently and hadlee's bad days (or early career) getting less influence on his numbers.

it's no coincidence hussey and his 80 average played for the GOAT team.

 

[h_hurricane]

you had me until the bowlers getting tired bit. irl the greatest sin you can commit is not be there to capitalise on the bowlers getting tired because you batted like a dick instead of sucking it up and being boring for 2 sessions when they're on top.

You are probably talking about Kapil the batsman. Trundler was talking about Kapil the bowler.

 

[Flem274*]

You are probably talking about Kapil the batsman. Trundler was talking about Kapil the bowler.

nah he referred to the batsman slow scoring bad meme.