Donald Bradman's average

[Slifer]

Pace bowling is only one aspect of cricket. They produce batsmen and spinners at a rate others cannot match.

You must be joking. Australia matches and surpasses India in terms of quality batsmen and spinners. Even allowing for the fact that Australia started playing much earlier.

 

[Socerer 01]

Not really tbh. Gretzky average wise, isn't that far ahead of Gordie Howe or Mario Lemieux. Bradman I'd twice as good as what a great batsman averages. That's nuts.

yeah from what others have posted in this thread seems like Gretzky is more a Tendulkar (has very high overall numbers with a strong and long peak) than a Bradman

 

[shortpitched713]

This is grossly wrong. First the methodology is wrong. They have taken standard deviation of batting averages, where the distribution is Poisson. Secondly even with this, Jahangir Khan's rally of 554 wins is a much bigger outlier. There was a Australian female squash player who had equally or more bad ass outlier properties than Khan.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245461454_Statistical_analysis_of_top_performers_in_sport_with_emphasis_on_the_relevance_of_outliers

Well I didn't write that paper, so not sure why you're quoting me, but that is in interesting read, and I'll be sure to look up those examples.

 

[Slifer]

yeah from what others have posted in this thread seems like Gretzky is more a Tendulkar (has very high overall numbers with a strong and long peak) than a Bradman

Yeah this. Imo, Wilt Chamberlain could've ended up as the closest to Bradman had he not consciously chosen to stop being a scorer and be a more all round player to win championships. For the first few years, Wilt was averaging mid 40s which is about 40% more than what a great basket ball player averages (20-25ppg).

In terms of the complete package though, Wilt does match Bradman in terms of untouchable achievements: 50 ppg for a season, 100 pt game, more 60+ pt games than the rest of NBA combined, most rebounds per game, highest rebound average for a season. Had blocks and steals been recorded in his time, Wilt would've been the first and only player (IMO) to achieve a quintiple double. A quintiple double is roughly equivalent to taking all 20 wickets by a bowler IMO. I use Wilt and basketball because apart from cricket, I'm also a big follower of basketball, tennis and football (soccer).

 

[shortpitched713]

Yeah this. Imo, Wilt Chamberlain could've ended up as the closest to Bradman had he not consciously chosen to stop being a scorer and be a more all round player to win championships. For the first few years, Wilt was averaging mid 40s which is about 40% more than what a great basket ball player averages (20-25ppg).

In terms of the complete package though, Wilt does match Bradman in terms of untouchable achievements: 50 ppg for a season, 100 pt game, more 60+ pt games than the rest of NBA combined, most rebounds per game, highest rebound average for a season. Had blocks and steals been recorded in his time, Wilt would've been the first and only player (IMO) to achieve a quintiple double. A quintiple double is roughly equivalent to taking all 20 wickets by a bowler IMO. I use Wilt and basketball because apart from cricket, I'm also a big follower of basketball, tennis and football (soccer).

I'd say Bill Russell's accomplishment of leading his Celtics to 11 titles in 13 years as their best player and talisman is arguably even more impressive than all of Chamberlain's individual achievements. Obviously, it's less directly comparable with Bradman, whose claim to extraordinary greatness is individual excellence, but nonetheless incredibly remarkable.

In years past I may have brought up Pele, but the fact that Ronaldo and Messi are getting anywhere in the same ballpark (Romario also was pretty close) of total career goals, to me puts Bradman's career achievement over Pele. Steve Smith made a shout, but at this point doesn't look like he'll separate his average too far above the 60ish ceiling there seems to be for batting average at the highest level.

 

[Slifer]

I'd say Bill Russell's accomplishment of leading his Celtics to 11 titles in 13 years as their best player and talisman is arguably even more impressive than all of Chamberlain's individual achievements. Obviously, it's less directly comparable with Bradman, whose claim to extraordinary greatness is individual excellence, but nonetheless incredibly remarkable.

In years past I may have brought up Pele, but the fact that Ronaldo and Messi are getting anywhere in the same ballpark (Romario also was pretty close) of total career goals, to me puts Bradman's career achievement over Pele. Steve Smith made a shout, but at this point doesn't look like he'll separate his average too far above the 60ish ceiling there seems to be for batting average at the highest level.

Russell has 11 rings, Sam Jones 11, John Havlicek 8. Lucky players like Robert Horry had 7. My point? They have enough rings to be in at least the same ball park as Russell. Nobody in the nba is scoring 100 pts , averaging 50 ppg, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game ever again.

 

[shortpitched713]

Russell has 11 rings, Sam Jones 11, John Havlicek 8. Lucky players like Robert Horry had 7. My point? They have enough rings to be in at least the same ball park as Russell. Nobody in the nba is scoring 100 pts , averaging 50 ppg, pulling down 55 rebounds in a game ever again.

None of those other players led their team, which is what Russell did. I know it's a bit subjective, as opposed to objective, however having followed basketball I'l sure you've noticed that it's a sport where an individual leading player can have an outsized role in team success.

By that criteria then Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Michael Jordan are the next closest with 6, compared to Bill Russell's 11, which is somewhat more Bradmanesque.

 

[flibbertyjibber]

No. He was a freak.

 

[Slifer]

None of those other players led their team, which is what Russell did. I know it's a bit subjective, as opposed to objective, however having followed basketball I'l sure you've noticed that it's a sport where an individual leading player can have an outsized role in team success.

By that criteria then Kareem Abdul Jabbar, and Michael Jordan are the next closest with 6, compared to Bill Russell's 11, which is somewhat more Bradmanesque.

Still Russell's rings aren't Bradmanesque since they aren't individual stats. Wilt's achievements are. And again, had Wilt not consciously decided to stop scoring, his ppg average easily could've been mid to low 40s.

 

[ashley bach]

In 50 tests? Hard to see anyone ever maintaining that in 20 tests.
As already said here, Don's stats can't and will never be matched not only in cricket but any sporting comparison, it's just too freakish.
Whatever the best steroids were back in the day, the Don secretly had suitcases full of them, and he didn't share them with anyone.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Mike Tyson won matches way faster than others.
One of the Greatest time saver ever ? Whereas Bradman wasted everybody's time by staying longer in the crease.?

 

[Burgey]

This is grossly wrong. First the methodology is wrong. They have taken standard deviation of batting averages, where the distribution is Poisson. Secondly even with this, Jahangir Khan's rally of 554 wins is a much bigger outlier. There was a Australian female squash player who had equally or more bad ass outlier properties than Khan.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/245461454_Statistical_analysis_of_top_performers_in_sport_with_emphasis_on_the_relevance_of_outliers

Her name is Heather McKay and she was undefeated for nearly 20 years up to her retirement in 1981. She lost two matches in her career - in 1960 and 1962. Won 15 consecutive British Opens.

Played hockey for Australia too.

 

[honestbharani]

Growing up every Indian kid has probably played some street cricket with tennis ball.. But that’s where it ends. In USA for example, there are all sorts of scholarships available for any promising players right from high-school for basketball, baseball etc.

In india or other SC countries, opportunities like this don’t exist (or may be they do but no one really knows). Point is in developed countries, process to fast-forward talented young players is much more streamlined. Asian countries in general have a limited talent pool despite large population due to economic reasons and limited resources..

TBF, a LOT of good crickters from the 60s have been taken in by the club cricket scene in Chennai (the TNCA League - divisions 1 to 5). They were all given plumb jobs in the companies where they had to do very little and that too, perfunctory stuff. They were provided a living for their talents as cricketers. It is the reason why Srini Mama is so highly regarded within the cricket community here, esp. amongst actual cricketers.

Side note- TNCA is relaunching their long format (3 day) divisions starting this year after a hiatus of a number of years. As long as they are allowed to sign other state stars like they used to, this should mean more importance to the long format game again at least here in TN.

 

[Migara]

You must be joking. Australia matches and surpasses India in terms of quality batsmen and spinners. Even allowing for the fact that Australia started playing much earlier.

May be top class bats. Talent pool is humongous in India. And spinners, please don't make jokes. India always had that good to great spinner in their ranks, and not so good ones performing exceptionally once in a while. There were times Australia were scratching their cupboards looking for a quality spinner.

 

[TheJediBrah]

May be top class bats. Talent pool is humongous in India. And spinners, please don't make jokes. India always had that good to great spinner in their ranks, and not so good ones performing exceptionally once in a while. There were times Australia were scratching their cupboards looking for a quality spinner.

Xavier Doherty > Ashwin

 

[Xix2565]

Xavier Doherty > Ashwin

XD

 

[TheJediBrah]

Other than Warne (and MacGill I guess technically) Aus haven't had a quality Test spinner since Benaud

India have had like 10 in that time

 

[Starfighter]

Other than Warne (and MacGill I guess technically) Aus haven't had a quality Test spinner since Benaud

India have had like 10 in that time

Australia has done well enough for generally having unfriendly pitches through about the entirety of that period. MacGill and Mallett come out ahead of most of the Indian spinners in that period, including two of the quartet.

Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com

stats.espncricinfo.com

 

[Slifer]

May be top class bats. Talent pool is humongous in India. And spinners, please don't make jokes. India always had that good to great spinner in their ranks, and not so good ones performing exceptionally once in a while. There were times Australia were scratching their cupboards looking for a quality spinner.

Really ? OK let's see. India had zilch in the 80s, as did Australia. In the 90s, Australia had Warne and later MacGill and now Lyons. India had Kumble, Jadeja and Ashwin. Maybe a case can be made for Harbajan. But whereas, Australia's spinners were usually serviceable home and away (Warne was great), India's were and still are only really useful in Asia. Over the course of history, Australia's ability imo, matches India's in terms of quantity and quality.

India: Bedi, Gupte, Chandrasekhar, Prassana, Kumble, Harbhajan, Jadeja, Ashwin

Australia: O'Reilly, Grimmett, Benaud, Mallet, Warne, MacGill, Lyons, Yardley,

 

[Slifer]

May be top class bats. Talent pool is humongous in India. And spinners, please don't make jokes. India always had that good to great spinner in their ranks, and not so good ones performing exceptionally once in a while. There were times Australia were scratching their cupboards looking for a quality spinner.

This isn't up for debate. Australia has produced more top class bats throughout its history than any other test playing nation. And certainly India.