England players and selection discussion thread

[Spark]

I mean, you could say its an eye thing at best, but in my view it is more of a judgement thing, and I see hand-eye as more of a reflex. Its how it makes sense in my head when you see folks like Sehwag and Virat and the like, maybe even Crawley.

Right but if your reflexes are poorer, or less reliable, then your decision making will be worse.

 

[honestbharani]

Right but if your reflexes are poorer, or less reliable, then your decision making will be worse.

Sure but he is able to play strokes to the same balls and time them, so it really can't be that AFAIC.

 

[Spark]

Sure but he is able to play strokes to the same balls and time them, so it really can't be that AFAIC.

That's a biomechanical thing (i.e. "technique"), which certainly makes it easier, but ultimately - and this is my big hobbyhorse re: batting these days - batting is a fundamentally skill-based art whose core determining factor is raw hand-eye coordination. No amount of technique is ever going to fully compensate for "picking the length" later or seeing the ball with less clarity. There's just not enough time to compensate, all the movements have to be essentially automated.

 

[Xix2565]

Up until 2015 he consistently used to bowl more than 20 overs an innings and now he's bowling closer to 17 overs an innings since then. Is 20 overs an innings workhorse levels?

Not necessarily, since it depends on how much of the team's total he's bowling as well as when he's bowling. Generally, opening bowlers have ended up bowling around 20% (individually, not as both opening bowlers combined) of the team's total overs/balls across all eras for all teams bar a few exceptions.

Like I haven't read much about Anderson in this regard beyond recent form discussion elsewhere but to me from following England's Tests Anderson is being used like an opening strike bowler as of late (which to be fair is perfectly fine for various reasons). He's not necessarily been the guy bowling tireless dead overs like spinners do, nor should he have to if the rest of the attack can do the majority of the work.

 

[honestbharani]

That's a biomechanical thing (i.e. "technique"), which certainly makes it easier, but ultimately - and this is my big hobbyhorse re: batting these days - batting is a fundamentally skill-based art whose core determining factor is raw hand-eye coordination. No amount of technique is ever going to fully compensate for "picking the length" later or seeing the ball with less clarity. There's just not enough time to compensate, all the movements have to be essentially automated.

Exactly my point. If he is able to judge length and play strokes, then the hand-eye is not the issue. It is what he perceives as his offstump line that is an issue and that to me, is a judgement thing, coz it is not an on the spot decision you make. You usually have an idea of what the line of your offstump is even as you take guard. So to me, it is a mental discipline thing. And having seen many strokemaking batsmen build this into their game over the years, I do think it is something that can be improved over time and training.

 

[Spark]

issue and that to me, is a judgement thing, coz it is not an on the spot decision you make.

Yeah this is where I disagree. This is not just an on-the-spot decision you make, it is the on the spot decision you make. Your ability to instinctively judge line and length of a ball within 0.1sec relative to your off stump is the most important, fundamental test of a batsman's skill.

I don't think he's getting lazy about it or anything because these are defensive shots he's getting out to. He's simply making mistakes.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah this is where I disagree. This is not just an on-the-spot decision you make, it is the on the spot decision you make. Your ability to instinctively judge line and length of a ball within 0.1sec relative to your off stump is the most important, fundamental test of a batsman's skill.

I don't think he's getting lazy about it or anything because these are defensive shots he's getting out to. He's simply making mistakes.

Yeah and I think he is just not sure of that line of his offstump, which is something he can figure out from his stance and is not an on the spot decision. The onthespot decision is to whether to play it or not. I guess your view is that he knows it is outside his offstump and is still playing at it. My view is he is not sure and hence playing at it. Guess have to agree to disagree here. Time will tell.

 

[Uppercut]

Getting back to this: Anderson only bowling 9 overs in the second innings two days ago might be a sign that things are changing (I'm unsure how long spells they bowled Potts for mind)

Stokes will definitely be an improvement on Root, who was about as bad at this stuff as it's possible to be. OTOH the new regime has already come out against rotation. I think rotating would make a lot of sense for England given that they have a lot of good bowlers that are old or have fitness concerns.

Should be OK this summer though, the schedule seems manageable enough.

 

[chris.hinton]

Bairstow....Jesus

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Both Overton’s selected but no sign of Crawley being replaced. They must assuming injuries amongst the fast bowlers.

 

[FBU]

I mean Anderson has consistently been bowling less overs for a while now. I don't know if he's ever been the workhorse consistently.

I read he only bowled 8 overs as his leg was too tightly strapped in the evening session but was ok the next day.

When they have bowled together 128 Tests
Broad 4378 overs
Anderson 4681 overs

In the last 3 years (15 Tests together) Broad 489.3 Anderson 457.1 - difference of 22 overs probably because he was injured after 4 overs v Aus 2019 and didn't bowl again in the match. I don't think he has been bowling less.

 

[Xix2565]

I read he only bowled 8 overs as his leg was too tightly strapped in the evening session but was ok the next day.

When they have bowled together 128 Tests
Broad 4378 overs
Anderson 4681 overs

In the last 3 years (15 Tests together) Broad 489.3 Anderson 457.1 - difference of 22 overs probably because he was injured after 4 overs v Aus 2019 and didn't bowl again in the match. I don't think he has been bowling less.

When I say less it's in proportion to the rest of the team. Sure each of the other bowlers might not have bowled a lot alone, but combined together they are slowly bowling more and more overs. This causes problems if the other bowlers aren't good enough to either take more of the burden as wicket takers or be very economical like Anderson (and Broad). Which then causes problems in team balance since it's going to make the tail even longer if you want to keep picking the best bowlers who can take wickets/be economical (not counting all the injuries to their bowlers).

I mean there was a reason commentators were worried about Anderson's durability during the 2021 English summer considering by the Oval Test against India he was looking exhausted.

 

[kevinw]

Stokes is a doubt for the third test. Reckon it's time for Sam Curran to come back to replace Stokes and give a fifth bowling option. Talk of Anderson being rested too. Not saying Curran is the right pick but can't see them going with only three seamers and Leach, or with just four seamers when the weather may be set fair.

Crawley, Lees, Pope, Root, Bairstow, Foakes, S Curran, J Overton, Leach, Broad, Potts

 

[Tom Flint]

Jimmy will play

 

[Tom Flint]

Stokes will be asking to play but they may over rule him after what has happened to some of our other bowlers the last couple of years

 

[grecian]

Stokes will be asking to play but they may over rule him after what has happened to some of our other bowlers the last couple of years

Yeah we all like the new England, but they can't be dogmatically the opposite to the last lot, if Stokes and Anderson are in the red zone, don't play them, we've won the series.

 

[GIMH]

Who captains if Stokes doesn’t play?

 

[Pothas]

Root the obvious candidate really. Broad though I guess.

 

[GIMH]

Can’t see Root doing it. If it was a year or two down the line I’m sure he would as a one off but too soon.
Hopefully Broad. I want it to happen at least once

 

[FBU]

Stokes is a doubt for the third test. Reckon it's time for Sam Curran to come back to replace Stokes and give a fifth bowling option. Talk of Anderson being rested too. Not saying Curran is the right pick but can't see them going with only three seamers and Leach, or with just four seamers when the weather may be set fair.

Crawley, Lees, Pope, Root, Bairstow, Foakes, S Curran, J Overton, Leach, Broad, Potts

Sam Curran is in the Netherlands. McCullum said he doesn't want rotation any more.
If Stokes doesn't play Brook will replace him and 8 J Overton 9 Broad 10 Potts 11 Anderson.